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Thread: Digital audio vs vinyl

  1. #71
    Join Date: Jan 2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratmangler View Post
    SMPS, yes. The device auto senses voltage and adjusts itself accordingly.
    Upsampling, probably not.
    Cheers, Chris

    However, it would be interesting to know how the circuit it uses manipulates the music signal, in order for the product to achieve its design goals. Quite simply, any such manipulation leaves an audible 'footprint', which is why no DAC, or no anything, is genuinely 'transparent'.

    In that respect, therefore, it'd be interesting to know how in that way, the Dave doesn't deliver 'a free lunch', as it were.

    Don't forget that Chord is one company that does SMPS properly, and builds the damn things properly - you're not talking about the cheap as chips wall wart rubbish that's supplied with most everything today.
    Absolutely, but it's just a personal thing with me (including the noise they subsequently inject into the local mains supply), but wouldn't allow it to be a deal breaker, if the Dave proved to be exceptionally good.

    Marco.
    "A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and gets to bed at night, and in between he does what he wants to do". - Milan Kundera.

    "Your validity or worth are not defined or determined by the views of others with their own superimposed agendas". - Pharos (on AoS)

    My system:

    Modified Technics SL-1210MK5G/Mike New high-precision bearing & baseplate/Mike New ETP platter/Bruil record weight/Nagaoka GL602 crystal T/T mat. Paul Hynes SR7EHD PSU (plus regulator modules)/DCSXL pure-silver DC lead. Ortofon RS-212D tonearm/'Speedy Steve' custom-made Ebony armboard. Yannis Tome 423.5 Phono Silver-Litz tonearm cable, with Furutech CF-DIN(R) and Eichmann silver Bullet Plugs. Cartridges: Denon DL-S1 in AT MG-10 headshell with AT-6106 Quattro Hybrid lead-wire. Denon DL-103C1 in '103U' headshell with AT-609 silver lead-wire. Vintage Denon DL-103AU in AT-Ti15ANV Titanium Headshell. Shure M55E in Denon PCL-300 headshell with 6N silver lead-wire. Shure original USA SC35C. Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 transport/DAC. Raspberry Pi-3 Model B and IQaudio Pi-DAC+/Paul Hynes SR3DR-05 linear PSU/Williams Audio NAS linear PSU. Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X preamp. Stereo Coffee LDR. Head-amp: Paul Hynes design/SR5 PSU. Also modified Lentek. Tube Distinctions 50W Class A P/P Copper amp with cryo-treated Tung Sol KT150s. Speakers: 'Lockwood Majors', using 15" Tannoy Monitor Golds, modified with bespoke crossovers. Also Celestion Ditton 15XRs. Stands: Mana Acoustics (non-magnetic stainless steel 'clones’). Hi-Fi Racks Podium T/T wall shelf. Sony ST-5055L tuner. Cables: Furukawa EE/F-S 2mm & 2.6mm solid-core mains leads, fitted with Furutech FI-50 IECs and FI-1363Rs. Stereo interconnects: Sommer Carbokab 225 (with silver-plated MS Audio non-metallic POM RCAs). Speaker cable: VDH 'The Wind' Hybrid II. Digital coaxial cable: 1m Trompeter Electronics Triax TRC-75-2, with MS Audio ‘Starline' silver-plated RCAs. Mains block: Mark Grant 6-way, modded with Furutech FP-1363R sockets and Furukawa cable. Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW 16.5 record cleaner.

  2. #72
    Join Date: Nov 2008

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    I would expect the Chord SMPS to be exceptionally quiet in respect of spraying RF all over the local mains.
    You'd need your most favourite bit of apparatus (an oscilloscope) to check this out
    Chris

  3. #73
    Join Date: Jan 2008

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    Lol.... Or just use my ears to hear, for example, if merely by having the Chord plugged into the mains, whilst listening to the Sony, the sound deteriorated and/or improved when the former was removed

    But yes, I take your point, and would expect the Chord to use 'the daddy' of all SMPS.

    Marco.
    "A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and gets to bed at night, and in between he does what he wants to do". - Milan Kundera.

    "Your validity or worth are not defined or determined by the views of others with their own superimposed agendas". - Pharos (on AoS)

    My system:

    Modified Technics SL-1210MK5G/Mike New high-precision bearing & baseplate/Mike New ETP platter/Bruil record weight/Nagaoka GL602 crystal T/T mat. Paul Hynes SR7EHD PSU (plus regulator modules)/DCSXL pure-silver DC lead. Ortofon RS-212D tonearm/'Speedy Steve' custom-made Ebony armboard. Yannis Tome 423.5 Phono Silver-Litz tonearm cable, with Furutech CF-DIN(R) and Eichmann silver Bullet Plugs. Cartridges: Denon DL-S1 in AT MG-10 headshell with AT-6106 Quattro Hybrid lead-wire. Denon DL-103C1 in '103U' headshell with AT-609 silver lead-wire. Vintage Denon DL-103AU in AT-Ti15ANV Titanium Headshell. Shure M55E in Denon PCL-300 headshell with 6N silver lead-wire. Shure original USA SC35C. Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 transport/DAC. Raspberry Pi-3 Model B and IQaudio Pi-DAC+/Paul Hynes SR3DR-05 linear PSU/Williams Audio NAS linear PSU. Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X preamp. Stereo Coffee LDR. Head-amp: Paul Hynes design/SR5 PSU. Also modified Lentek. Tube Distinctions 50W Class A P/P Copper amp with cryo-treated Tung Sol KT150s. Speakers: 'Lockwood Majors', using 15" Tannoy Monitor Golds, modified with bespoke crossovers. Also Celestion Ditton 15XRs. Stands: Mana Acoustics (non-magnetic stainless steel 'clones’). Hi-Fi Racks Podium T/T wall shelf. Sony ST-5055L tuner. Cables: Furukawa EE/F-S 2mm & 2.6mm solid-core mains leads, fitted with Furutech FI-50 IECs and FI-1363Rs. Stereo interconnects: Sommer Carbokab 225 (with silver-plated MS Audio non-metallic POM RCAs). Speaker cable: VDH 'The Wind' Hybrid II. Digital coaxial cable: 1m Trompeter Electronics Triax TRC-75-2, with MS Audio ‘Starline' silver-plated RCAs. Mains block: Mark Grant 6-way, modded with Furutech FP-1363R sockets and Furukawa cable. Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW 16.5 record cleaner.

  4. #74
    Join Date: Oct 2012

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    There's nothing wrong with SMPS if used wisely. An SMPS followed by a linear regulator is pretty much the best of all worlds as you get high efficiency, low noise and total freedom from mains voltage compatibility and fluctuation issues as many SMPS can operate from 90 - 260V without adjustment and maintain the output voltage correctly over this range. It can be tricky using a conventional supply with linear regulator to get the thing to work happily over the range of being in a 220V country and the mains is a bit low that day (210V say) and being in this country with its 240V mains and allowing for days when it reaches say 255V. In the first extreme the supply can drop out of regulation and in the second things can get rather toasty warm!
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

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  5. #75
    Join Date: May 2010

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haselsh1 View Post
    Very interesting as my findings were the complete opposite. In my system the CD replay was completely over the top and in your face. There is nothing refined about my CD replay whereas with vinyl it is completely laid back and rounded.
    It is just so soothing to listen to.
    We could be comparing apples to oranges here, you know. The only way to really compare notes would be if you could get a copy of the original Extrapolation LP and the official CD, and then play them side-by-side on your system. Or, me getting the analog and digital copies of the tracks you were listening.

    I do agree with you that, depending on the LP, some may sound laid back, mellow, 'organic' (as you say), soothing, while some other LPs may sound more vivacious, gutsy, impolite, garlicky, hot and spicy. All those things would largely depend on how hot the instruments were being tracked in the recording venue, as well as how were the tracks mixed and mastered.

    Lastly, a lot of it would also depend on the pressing. I've heard different pressings of the same LP sound drastically different -- one smooth, mellow, non-aggressive, the other forward, pushy, aggressive. Same track, different pressings. Believe it or not.
    Don't you just hate it when you cannot detect where the post ends and a signature line begins?

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  6. #76
    Join Date: Apr 2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    No worries, mate. I totally get that. I just think that the only way anyone can properly compare the capabilities of their digital and vinyl sources, is when there exists a level playing field, both in terms of financial expenditure, and simply how much time and effort has been spent by the owner, in terms of 'maxing them out'

    Marco.
    You aren't far from me, so possibly I could come round and we can compare my 'new school' TDA1541A DAC with your 'old school'. For me to approach my digital setup I would need a turntable like yours, or perhaps a maxed out Pink Triangle Anniversary, Townshend Rock etc. to beat this. Having said this my point is that top-class sound is far more expensive via the pure analogue route than vs. well-sorted digital i.e. I think £2k of proper digital will take over £10k of proper analogue to beat.
    Mana Acoustics Racks >> Custom Silent Media Server >> Halide Bridge USB (with AQVOX USB power) >> Pedja Rogic's Audial Model S DAC + Pioneer PL-71 turntable / Vista Audio phono-1 mk II / Denon PCL-5 headshell / Reson Reca >> LFD DLS >> LFD PA2M (SE) >> Royd RR3s.

  7. #77
    Join Date: May 2010

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Hi Alex,



    Well, for me it's simply because, in reality (out with of what's purported as being 'accurate'), what you're seeing in actuality, isn't, but rather as good as is currently possible for today's technology to produce. Therefore, no matter how convincingly lifelike a Van Gogh painting may appear on a computer screen, it's ultimately only a digitally created facsimile of the real thing; not actually the REAL THING itself...

    In that respect, it's pretty obvious that what the naked human eye sees in real life, is infinitely more detailed and real than anything currently created and produced by man - and the same applies to our ears, which is why what we hear in audio, yet seemingly can't measure, I believe we mostly genuinely experience, even though it seemingly can't be proven, via any known means.

    However, how that correlates with the 'digital vs. vinyl playback' debate is of course open to interpretation.

    My view would be that, the ways in which many of us hear vinyl replay (at its best) as sounding more 'musically lifelike', compared with its digital counterpart, is simply down to the fact that, as already mentioned, much of what we can genuinely see and hear as humans, we haven't yet found a way of measuring, and thus proving that what we're seeing or hearing, in that respect, is real.

    I'm convinced, however, that it is, and yes that applies to the superiority of vinyl playback, claimed by you and I (and many others), despite some of it technically not being backed up by measurements.

    Marco.
    Hi Marco, interesting discussion. You bring up the point that is very important to me, and I'm a firm believer that our limitless arrogance poses a barrier to our ability to truly understand what's going on. I'm referring to your statement 'much of what we can genuinely see and hear as humans, we haven't yet found a way of measuring, and thus proving that what we're seeing or hearing, in that respect, is real.'

    It is our incredible arrogance which gives us the license to firmly believe that, as of right now, 2017, we have absolutely reached the limit of what can be measured and explored in the world of psycho-acoustics. That's just bollocks, or as our American friends say, baloney.

    When you 'drop the needle' into the grooves, if you turn the volume off and place your ear close to the cartridge, you will HEAR MUSIC! So that's the REAL THING! When you push Play on a CD player and watch the CD spin and place your ear close to it, you will hear NOTHING!
    Last edited by magiccarpetride; 19-05-2017 at 17:41.
    Don't you just hate it when you cannot detect where the post ends and a signature line begins?

    Alex.

  8. #78
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by magiccarpetride View Post

    When you 'drop the needle' into the grooves, if you turn the volume off and place your ear close to the cartridge, you're will HEAR MUSIC! !
    Yes, but that's not a good thing.

    I agree with you about the psychoacoustics though. That is where the answer to the vinyl magic lies I think.
    Martin



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  9. #79
    Join Date: May 2010

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Yes, but that's not a good thing.

    I agree with you about the psychoacoustics though. That is where the answer to the vinyl magic lies I think.
    Why is that not a good thing?
    Don't you just hate it when you cannot detect where the post ends and a signature line begins?

    Alex.

  10. #80
    Join Date: Oct 2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by magiccarpetride View Post
    Hi Marco, interesting discussion. You bring up the point that is very important to me, and I'm a firm believer that our limitless arrogance poses a barrier to our ability to truly understand what's going on. I'm referring to your statement 'much of what we can genuinely see and hear as humans, we haven't yet found a way of measuring, and thus proving that what we're seeing or hearing, in that respect, is real.'

    It is our incredible arrogance which gives us the license to firmly believe that, as of right now, 2017, we have absolutely reached the limit of what can be measured and explored in the world of psycho-acoustics. That's just bollocks, or as our American friends say, baloney.

    When you 'drop the needle' into the grooves, if you turn the volume off and place your ear close to the cartridge, you're will HEAR MUSIC! So that's the REAL THING! When you push Play on a CD player and watch the CD spin and place your ear close to it, you will hear NOTHING!
    In the interests of pedantry, suppression of hypocrisy, and exposure of double standards to the full public glare of the spotlight.... If I'd claimed the opposite was "bollocks" it wouldn't have been acceptable here on AOS... apparently... It would seem one can argue with a vehemence that requires use of terms such as "bollocks", "a load of nonsense" or "only an idiot would make such claims" so long as one is singing from the same hymn book as "The Management"... but as soon as you are arguing against certain entrenched opinions, the use of such terms suddenly becomes "unacceptable", "playing the man not the ball" or "insulting to forum members".... Just saying
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

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