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Thread: Comparing vinyl sound to hi-res digital remaster

  1. #21
    Join Date: May 2010

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Depends on what we are taking about, the final mix is a master but then after that you have a recording master with compression eq and then you make generations of masters off that and send them round the world to pressing plants, or to distributors who make more copies of that master and so on.

    So you may not have the original final mix, or the pre or post compression master, you may have to use the 4th or 5th gen master if that is all there is available. Obviously in analogue all that copying results in degredation. So the source of your digital version could be significantly poorer than the source of your vinyl version. I mean people don't go after 1st pressings for no reason.

    As to what they do with it can vary from next to nothing, to cleaning it up a bit, to whacking the compressor right up and getting shot of all the nasty dynamic range. Although can't see why they would do that with a 'hi rez' remaster so I doubt that is the problem, although you never know.

    It is unlikely that went back to the original tracks and re-mixed it but I think they did do that with the 'Stones remasters so could be so. I agree that starts to become revisionism and a bit dodgy.
    From what I know (and please keep in mind that I know very little) there was a time in human history when mastering engineers' job was to prepare the master tape for vinyl pressing in such a way to make sure the vinyl will sound as close as possible to the reel-to-reel master. Allegedly, not a job for the faint hearted. But some people perfected the craft and the art and the black magic science in knowing how to coax the equipment into producing the vinyl that would be pretty darn close to how the master reel-to-reel sounds.

    Then came the age of Doug Sax (the Mastering Lab), when the rogue engineers said "sod that, mastering is an art in itself, so I'm gonna mess with the tape until it sounds the way I envision it!" They call it 'sweetening' the master tape. I call it bullshit.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by topoxforddoc View Post
    Not necessarily. In my system, I'm comparing 3 ways - 15 IPS master tape to a digital rip from the master tape to the LP played on my Platine Verdier. Even though my vinyl replay set up (PV plus 2 tonearms/carts and TRON Reference phono stage) costs in excess of 15k new, it gets stomped all over by the 15 IPS master tape and a direct digital rip of the 15 IPS master. Sorry.
    THAT I would love to hear!
    Don't you just hate it when you cannot detect where the post ends and a signature line begins?

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  3. #23
    Join Date: Sep 2013

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Remastering is taking the original mix and remastering it. Hence the name. So you create a new master different to the old one.

    It is sort of revising history but not to the extent of, say, the Star Wars Special Editions. It is a way to sell you the same album again, which is why there are so many re-masters of popular albums.
    Whilst in quite a few cases a marketing angle in undeniable, there remain other cases where electronics
    developments, has created the ability to interpret the original master tape in a better way, giving rise to
    achieving a better sound for the buyer.

    The Genesis re masters for instance have managed to achieve a better sound, I do not think many
    people would argue differently. The best example being Nursery Cryme

    Whilst it is lovely having sometimes improvements like this to earlier recordings, it is though indicative
    of a music industry in trouble, stifling new artists by way of excessive copyright and no longer talent scouting.

    Frank Zappa's disassociation with Herb Cohen brings a point of financial concern music artists
    find themselves in. "profiting unduly from his earnings" is the way Zappa describes it.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herb_Cohen Subsequently to extricate, artists like Zappa moved
    mountains to achieve freedom.

    If we compare the 1960's and 1970's to now, there is no comparison. Music flourished, now
    it does the opposite.

    Which gives or should give attention to Creative Commons music artists, as these people
    are doing their best to bring you their music, without excessive overheads.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons

  4. #24
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by magiccarpetride View Post
    From what I know (and please keep in mind that I know very little) there was a time in human history when mastering engineers' job was to prepare the master tape for vinyl pressing in such a way to make sure the vinyl will sound as close as possible to the reel-to-reel master. Allegedly, not a job for the faint hearted. But some people perfected the craft and the art and the black magic science in knowing how to coax the equipment into producing the vinyl that would be pretty darn close to how the master reel-to-reel sounds.

    Then came the age of Doug Sax (the Mastering Lab), when the rogue engineers said "sod that, mastering is an art in itself, so I'm gonna mess with the tape until it sounds the way I envision it!" They call it 'sweetening' the master tape. I call it bullshit.
    Ah well I don't know anything about that.

    Charlie has the right idea: just buy the masters. Then there's no argument.
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

    Sony X505ES CD Player * NVA P90SA passive pre / NVA A30 Power amp * JM Lab Electra 926 loudspeakers *



    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." - Hunter S Thompson

  5. #25
    Join Date: Apr 2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by magiccarpetride View Post
    I agree that there is nothing wrong with digital reproduction. Unless you happen to hear the same recording played back on a good turntable. Then the joy is totally and irrevocably ruined.
    I only use CD and records, but find that although the formats do present things differently, neither is superior to the other in my system. And, I have found some CD albums sound superior to the same album on vinyl (and vice versa).
    Mr. Tact!

    Main system: MMs/ADCs/Low output MC's/One rare Japanese SUT/One scarce British phono stage/various tonearms/hefty Japanese DD TT and hefty Japanese BD TT and small British BD TT. 4 CD players/2 jitter buster/2 DACs/Valve buffer. TVC stepped attenuator or valve pre-amp or solid state pre-amp. Current dumping power-amp or either of two Class A SS power-amp or Class A EL34 valve monos or big Japanese (part Class A) integrated. Big dual concentric speakers/Smaller dual concentric speakers/Two way British compacts and full range speakers, amongst others. And too much more to list!

  6. #26
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by Light Dependant Resistor View Post
    Whilst in quite a few cases a marketing angle in undeniable, there remain other cases where electronics
    developments, has created the ability to interpret the original master tape in a better way, giving rise to
    achieving a better sound for the buyer.

    The Genesis re masters for instance have managed to achieve a better sound, I do not think many
    people would argue differently. The best example being Nursery Cryme

    ]
    I agree some do sound better, but that to me is akin to digitally re-mastering Star Wars to sharpen it up from the old prints, which no sane person would object to, as opposed to Greedo shooting first and comedy cartoon jawas ruining moments of tension; which every sane person objects to. It isn't a fine line.
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

    Sony X505ES CD Player * NVA P90SA passive pre / NVA A30 Power amp * JM Lab Electra 926 loudspeakers *



    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." - Hunter S Thompson

  7. #27
    Join Date: May 2010

    Location: Vancouver, Canada

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    Quote Originally Posted by walpurgis View Post
    I only use CD and records, but find that although the formats do present things differently, neither is superior to the other in my system. And, I have found some CD albums sound superior to the same album on vinyl (and vice versa).
    I only use digital transport to play FLAC/WAV/AIFF (and sometimes mp3) files. I have invested a lot of time and effort in building the best possible digital sound system (within my budgetary constraints). Many people who visit and listen to my digital playback remark how amazing it sounds, how warm and 'analog-like' it is.

    But if I then play the same tracks on my turntable, there is no contest. Everyone readily admits that LPs beat digital files. What's up with that?
    Don't you just hate it when you cannot detect where the post ends and a signature line begins?

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  8. #28
    Join Date: Nov 2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by Light Dependant Resistor View Post
    The Genesis re masters for instance have managed to achieve a better sound, I do not think many
    people would argue differently. The best example being Nursery Cryme
    If you're talking about the now widely available versions, which were last messed about with in 2007, then they were remixes from the multitrack tapes.
    I'm not too fond of them in digital form, but on vinyl they sound fanbloodytastic.
    The original mixes were removed from general circulation after the 2007 works hit the shelves.
    Chris

    If I ask you what something means it's because I'm unable to understand whatever it is you're not managing to put into words very well.
    I have given up on guessing.
    If you don't like it then that's just tough shit!

    Once we've made sense of our world, we wanna go fuck up everybody else's because his or her truth doesn't match mine. But this is the problem. Truth is individual calculation. Which means because we all have different perspectives, there isn't one singular truth, is there?

  9. #29
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: Southall, West London

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    I'm Geoff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by magiccarpetride View Post
    What's up with that?
    Perhaps it suggests that your digital source is not up to the standard of your record playing setup.

    Or, that people agree with you to avoid an argument?
    Mr. Tact!

    Main system: MMs/ADCs/Low output MC's/One rare Japanese SUT/One scarce British phono stage/various tonearms/hefty Japanese DD TT and hefty Japanese BD TT and small British BD TT. 4 CD players/2 jitter buster/2 DACs/Valve buffer. TVC stepped attenuator or valve pre-amp or solid state pre-amp. Current dumping power-amp or either of two Class A SS power-amp or Class A EL34 valve monos or big Japanese (part Class A) integrated. Big dual concentric speakers/Smaller dual concentric speakers/Two way British compacts and full range speakers, amongst others. And too much more to list!

  10. #30
    Join Date: May 2010

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    Quote Originally Posted by walpurgis View Post
    Perhaps it suggests that your digital source is not up to the standard of your record playing setup.

    Or, that people agree with you to avoid an argument?
    There is no argument, I don't insist that LPs sound better. It's a spontaneous reaction. People initially react very favourably to the digital playback they hear on my system (not to brag, but people tend to utter words such as 'amazing!' and such). If I then play them the same material on the turntable, they get mighty surprised, because they did not expect that such improvement in sound was even possible.
    Don't you just hate it when you cannot detect where the post ends and a signature line begins?

    Alex.

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