Phono Stage Shootout

[Bigman80]

Scalford ay. Thats an interesting idea. What about a dedicated panel?

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[karma67]

Well he is up for it so it's just down to alan 😄

[Marco]

With respect Marco I totally disagree, which is unusual for the two of us.

I feel I have been quite complementary about the Tron Convergence, it is a very good stage. The build standard is fantastic and it is the quietest phono stage I have ever heard.
If your hypothetical case were true and Graham had said he had improved one of my designs then I would have great respect for his talents.
In my opinion no design is perfect, there is always some room for improvement; in some cases that would probably take a ton of money thrown at it to effect such an improvement.

No problem, Alan. We can disagree sometimes, as well as agree, and that's fine. The main point I was making was contained in my last sentence: perhaps think more about how what you're doing is impacting on the designer of the products you're 'improving' (I'm using inverted commas in this instance because I haven't heard what you've heard, but wouldn't doubt you).

In that respect, I'm pretty sure that Graham's not taking your modifying of his designs, despite what you say, in any way as "complimentary", and as registered traders here, it's up to you guys how you sort that out.

Marco.

[Bigman80]

Pretty sure Rock Grotto openly advertise their services to modify and improve tube buffers, J7 has made a good reputation for upgrading tonearms etc so not sure why there has been such a reaction to modifying a Tron.

This whole thing is starting to get a bit OTT. Graham obviously wasn't happy with the tinkering done to his Tron, which is his prerogative but withholding information that may benefit other members is surely counter productive to the ethos of the forum?

I think a shootout is a great idea with the invitation open to any builer/designer and adjudicated by a panel. Its should be done only if there is a full write-up regardless of how the results would affect the designer.

Thinking of Grahams situation here, I am 100% that no negativity about the quality of his work, phono stage etc has taken place. The Tron is a fabulous unit .

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[mac72]

With respect Marco I totally disagree, which is unusual for the two of us.

I feel I have been quite complementary about the Tron Convergence, it is a very good stage. The build standard is fantastic and it is the quietest phono stage I have ever heard.
If your hypothetical case were true and Graham had said he had improved one of my designs then I would have great respect for his talents.
In my opinion no design is perfect, there is always some room for improvement; in some cases that would probably take a ton of money thrown at it to effect such an improvement.

However I have learnt an awful lot about phono stage design in the past 4 years and there is more than one way to skin a rabbit, as they say.
I have only done minor modifications to the circuitry of the Tron, remembering that it is my property, and in my opinion the performance is considerably better.

I appreciate that any design is restricted to an extent by the target selling price, but with the modifications I have made the unit would not suffer an increase in price.
If Graham would like to know the details of the circuit changes then I am more than willing to share them with him, without prejudice.

My attitude is that it is all about improving the quality of sound for everyone, which is why I share my expertise willingly on AoS.

It's time to be clear about what's happened , it was me who reported your post to Marco , I pointed out that it would be more tactful to contact Tron/GT Audio directly through PM and to discuss any "improvements" with Graham, not publicly state I could have done it better ,
Another thing I pointed out , do you have any empirical proof that your changes make any effect on frequency response , S/N ratio , etc... if so please provide , I would love to see measurements of couple different phono stages to make sure is not your setup (tonearm/cartridge) which is at wrong and changes you're making are actually not a improvement but it just "sounds" better in the very specific setup , I'm not entirely sure but Tron is tube based isn't, in this case have you measured tubes themselves prior to your listening test to check how their affect what you are "hearing"
As I have mentioned to Marco I do not own any of Tron products neither do I have any commercial or private connection with GT Audio ( sorry I do own Zyx cartridge and Graham is a main distributor).
Have a good day

[Marco]

Pretty sure Rock Grotto openly advertise their services to modify and improve tube buffers, J7 has made a good reputation for upgrading tonearms etc so not sure why there has been such a reaction to modifying a Tron.

This whole thing is starting to get a bit OTT. Graham obviously wasn't happy with the tinkering done to his Tron, which is his prerogative but withholding information that may benefit other members is surely counter productive to the ethos of the forum?

No-one's talking about "withholding information", Oliver. Where did you get that from? Quite the opposite is happening. Neither has anything been "OTT", unless you expect Graham simply to sit back, be unhappy, and do nothing?

All I'm saying is that, as much as I admire the work that Alan's doing, and consider it as a good thing for AoS members and other folks reading, who may want to go down a similar route, it's important to see the other side, too.

No more, no less!

Marco.

[Bigman80]

No-one's talking about "withholding information", Oliver. Where did you get that from? Quite the opposite is happening. Neither has anything been "OTT", unless you expect Graham simply to sit back, be unhappy, and do nothing?

All I'm saying is that, as much as I admire the work that Alan's doing, and consider it as a good thing for AoS members and other folks reading who may want to go down a similar route, it's important to see the other side, too.

No more, no less!

Marco.

I was suggesting that had Alan realised the mods made such a difference and not published them, that would be against the ethos as I understand it. We're all here to improve our systems essentially and to seek advice.

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[Marco]

Indeed so, and no-one was suggesting that Alan shouldn't have published them. However, at the same time, when he did, it's understandable that there may have been a reaction from those who didn't consider what he was doing was in their best interests.

Try and put yourself in Graham's position, for a moment, instead of what's best for you, Alan or AoS. That's all I'm saying. It's important that the interests of ALL registered traders here are considered and that no-one receives preferential treatment.

*Everyone* is treated the same here, and so no-one's 'pet products' (or favourite manufacturer) will be considered as representing the 'de facto standard' on AoS.

Marco.

[Bigman80]

It's time to be clear about what's happened , it was me who reported your post to Marco , I pointed out that it would be more tactful to contact Tron/GT Audio directly through PM and to discuss any "improvements" with Graham, not publicly state I could have done it better , if so do it and try to match Tron's sales numbers or you're just a little Crusader trying to bring best sound quality to the members of AoS (kind of your words) if so I'll take one of your stages for free then.
Another thing I pointed out , do you have any empirical proof that your changes make any effect on frequency response , S/N ratio , etc... if so please provide , I would love to see measurements of couple different phono stages to make sure is not your setup (tonearm/cartridge) which is at wrong and changes you're making are actually not a improvement but it just "sounds" better in the very specific setup , I'm not entirely sure but Tron is tube based isn't, in this case have you measured tubes themselves prior to your listening test to check how their affect what you are "hearing"
As I have mentioned to Marco I do not own any of Tron products neither do I have any commercial or private connection with GT Audio ( sorry I do own Zyx cartridge and Graham is a main distributor).
Have a good day

Sorry to say this, Slav but the tone of your post is condescending and disrespectful.

"Just a little crusader" "match Tron's sales numbers" ???

No one has disputed how successful Graham has been and how successful I hope he is in the future.

The need for testing every single scientific difference is not necessarily as your ears tell you everything you need to know. Have you scientifically tested every pair of speaker cables you've tried to see which are the best or did you plug them in and listen then pick the ones that sound best?

Im also wondering where the unbiased protection is for ALL registered traders.

Whilst talking about tact, why didnt you message Alan directly and raise your concerns/opinion with him?

Seems you prefered to jump on this thread and throw insulting phrases around.

Like I said Marco, its getting OTT. As the OP, I am requesting this thread be closed. please feel free to delete all the content apart from the original post.

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[Marco]

Like I said Marco, its getting OTT. As the OP, I am requesting this thread be closed. please feel free to delete all the content apart from the original post.

For goodness sake, Oliver. Get a grip... When you start a thread, you can't expect it all to go your own way! Also, regardless of being the OP, the mods and I have the final say of when threads should be locked, and so if that happens, it'll take place on our terms, not yours.

People with a different opinions are entitled to express them, although I agree that the "little crusader" comment from Slav was insulting and out of order, which he should retract.

However, nothing is "getting OTT", unless you have an objection to robust debate, or someone making a point you don't like. We don't practice censorship here, therefore the thread will be staying open (until it's decided otherwise by us), so that everyone can have their fair say.

Marco.