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Thread: Phono Stage Shootout

  1. #31
    Bigman80 Guest

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    Ooooo. Looking forward to getting a listen

    Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

  2. #32
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: The Black Country

    Posts: 6,089
    I'm Alan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    I remember one particular shoot out at my first NEBO where Nick Gorams phono stage wiped the floor with everything else, it was so far ahead and very special indeed but again I think it was about £10,000

    Alan needs to hear one of these
    No I need to engage in a shoot out

    Ali, if you get to borrow mikeyb's Vivant is there a chance you could also borrow a stage off Nick?


  3. #33
    Join Date: Mar 2008

    Location: Galashiels

    Posts: 13,669
    I'm inthescottishmafia.

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    Would struggle tbh, he only has one. Can you make it to Owston?
    “Music has always been a matter of energy to me, a question of fuel. Sentimental people call it inspiration, but what they really mean is fuel. I have always needed fuel. I am a serious consumer. On some nights I still believe that a car with the gas needle on empty can run about fifty more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio”

    Hunter S Thompson

  4. #34
    RothwellAudio Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebottle View Post
    ... I've been doing TRON mods
    Interesting. What modifications did you make?

  5. #35
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,173
    I'm Jez.

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    I had a look in a Tron reference a couple of years ago... pretty bog standard generic topology very similar to 80's Audio research and Conrad Johnson models and many others besides... Not that there is anything bad about that of course, certain topologies do become well known and are known to work well and tend to become part of, lets say the standard repertoire (think of what proportion of SS power amps use a LTP followed by a single ended Vas and push pull followers... and how many valve power amps are pretty much the same design!). if it's the same as the unit i took a butchers at it has two gain stages then a cathode follower from which series negative feedback, including the RIAA, is applied to the cathode of the input valve. As one may expect, I have a similar design of my own that i designed several years ago in computer simulation. I never got round to doing anything with it but the idea was for it to be a mid price stage, £6-700 ish.
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  6. #36
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: The Black Country

    Posts: 6,089
    I'm Alan.

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    Hi Jez, that's very interesting to know about the Tron reference. I can state categorically I wouldn't like it, without even hearing it.

    In my experience negative feed back equalisation is never as good as passive, hence why I always use passive. Yes there are compromises to be addressed but that's the name of the game.
    I think the 'standard repertoire' is also rather disappointing, I have found the same in the Convergence, but at least it uses passive equalisation, even though it is not accurate. I was hoping for some advanced design or a couple of 'tweaks' that can make a phono stage excell, but sadly not.

    The modifications:
    Both gain stages use standard cathode bias with an electrolytic bypass capacitor. That's a no-no in my book so they came out. Gain loss was 8dB.

    To improve the linearity of the second stage I bootstrapped it from the cathode follower output, also resulting in an increased gain of 6dB.
    The gain of the original circuit was high at 69dB, so a 2dB loss overall was quite acceptable.

    The depth of the soundstage was improved with greater resolution.


  7. #37
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,173
    I'm Jez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebottle View Post
    Hi Jez, that's very interesting to know about the Tron reference. I can state categorically I wouldn't like it, without even hearing it.

    In my experience negative feed back equalisation is never as good as passive, hence why I always use passive. Yes there are compromises to be addressed but that's the name of the game.
    I think the 'standard repertoire' is also rather disappointing, I have found the same in the Convergence, but at least it uses passive equalisation, even though it is not accurate. I was hoping for some advanced design or a couple of 'tweaks' that can make a phono stage excell, but sadly not.

    The modifications:
    Both gain stages use standard cathode bias with an electrolytic bypass capacitor. That's a no-no in my book so they came out. Gain loss was 8dB.

    To improve the linearity of the second stage I bootstrapped it from the cathode follower output, also resulting in an increased gain of 6dB.
    The gain of the original circuit was high at 69dB, so a 2dB loss overall was quite acceptable.

    The depth of the soundstage was improved with greater resolution.

    I didn't go as far as reverse engineering the reference so my post is based on what I could see from the top of the board... IIRC it also had electrolytic bypass caps. I assume you have changed the eq network to compensate for removing the caps? I always design for extremely accurate eq as what's the point of going for excellence elsewhere if one hasn't got the RIAA right and the thing has slightly too much/little bass/treble etc IMHO.
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  8. #38
    Join Date: May 2017

    Location: Higher Denham, Uxbridge, UK

    Posts: 9
    I'm Graham.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    I had a look in a Tron reference a couple of years ago... pretty bog standard generic topology very similar to 80's Audio research and Conrad Johnson models and many others besides... Not that there is anything bad about that of course, certain topologies do become well known and are known to work well and tend to become part of, lets say the standard repertoire (think of what proportion of SS power amps use a LTP followed by a single ended Vas and push pull followers... and how many valve power amps are pretty much the same design!). if it's the same as the unit i took a butchers at it has two gain stages then a cathode follower from which series negative feedback, including the RIAA, is applied to the cathode of the input valve. As one may expect, I have a similar design of my own that i designed several years ago in computer simulation. I never got round to doing anything with it but the idea was for it to be a mid price stage, £6-700 ish.

    There is nothing remotely similar in the Tron Seven Reference phono stage to ARC and Conrad Johnson models of the 80's other than the 3 valves in the circuit. There is certainly no feedback in the circuit apart from the cathode follower output stage and certainly no link back to the input stage...
    Graham Tricker
    G T Audio/AudioMeister/TRON
    01895 833099

    Personal System
    Analogue: TW Acustic Black Night Turntable, SME M2-12R Tonearm, Ortofon 90th Anniversary SPU / TW Acustic Raven LTD Turntable, TW Acustic 10.5 Tonearm, Transfiguration Proteus / Studer 807 & Studer 810 Tape Machines.
    Digital: Innuos Zenith MKII / Tron Seven GT DAC.
    Amplification: Tron Seven GT Mono Phono stage x 2 / Tron Nemesis Preamplifier / Tron Telstar Power Amplifier.
    Loudspeakers: Cessaro Liszt Horns.

  9. #39
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,173
    I'm Jez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G T Audio View Post
    There is nothing remotely similar in the Tron Seven Reference phono stage to ARC and Conrad Johnson models of the 80's other than the 3 valves in the circuit. There is certainly no feedback in the circuit apart from the cathode follower output stage and certainly no link back to the input stage...
    I only took a quick gander at the top of the board and the layout suggested this topology. I didn't even lift the board as it was only in for a check over before being sold. I don't reverse engineer anyone's current kit, not cricket It's your design so I'm sure you're quite right.
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  10. #40
    Join Date: May 2017

    Location: Higher Denham, Uxbridge, UK

    Posts: 9
    I'm Graham.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebottle View Post
    Hi Jez, that's very interesting to know about the Tron reference. I can state categorically I wouldn't like it, without even hearing it.
    That's good to know because there are over 1000 satisfied Tron Seven owners around the world who are very happy with theirs... Also the Tron Seven has been in continuous production for 11 years...

    BTW I have the serial number recorded on the Convergence you have modified so the 2 year warranty is now void.
    Graham Tricker
    G T Audio/AudioMeister/TRON
    01895 833099

    Personal System
    Analogue: TW Acustic Black Night Turntable, SME M2-12R Tonearm, Ortofon 90th Anniversary SPU / TW Acustic Raven LTD Turntable, TW Acustic 10.5 Tonearm, Transfiguration Proteus / Studer 807 & Studer 810 Tape Machines.
    Digital: Innuos Zenith MKII / Tron Seven GT DAC.
    Amplification: Tron Seven GT Mono Phono stage x 2 / Tron Nemesis Preamplifier / Tron Telstar Power Amplifier.
    Loudspeakers: Cessaro Liszt Horns.

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