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Thread: Playing with RCA vs Balanced in my setup

  1. #1
    Join Date: Mar 2012

    Location: West Yorkshire

    Posts: 274
    I'm Bruce.

    Default Playing with RCA vs Balanced in my setup

    So here is something I did not expect: the difference I hear between and single ended (RCA) connections through my source and amplifier does NOT seem to be primarily due to either the balanced circuit in my amplifier nor to the XLR interconnects. It seems to be due to the balanced outs on my DAC. Not sure why exactly.

    I prefer the sound when connected through balanced, as the RCA connection is a little too warm, slightly more dynamic, slightly more congested in complex passages, a little less sense of clarity which seems to be due to slightly less well defined leading edge and trailing transients. By comparison, my balanced connections correct all those issues and have a more natural balance and sense of rightness t the music presentation.

    My baseline is all XLR from source, through preamp, to amplifier which requires an internal jumper setting in the amp. For last two rounds of the test I used the same RCA cable (RFC Pluto) from DAC to Amp, and then added an XLR-RCA adapter from MicroXpress and changed to the DAC's balanced output. For volume control I used the 64bit digital controls in JRiver's media player. The sound returned pretty close to what I hear when using all XLR and the amp's balanced circuitry.

    • I can't put this down to the Amp's balanced circuitry, since my connection to the amp was RCA in both of the last two cases.
    • I can't put this down to RFI, since my cable was an RCA cable.
    • I can't put it down to the lossy nature of digital volume control, because if the digital attenuation is lossy, it will be worse not better when the volume control setting is lower. And I had to raise the volume 10% when using the Balanced DAC output.
    • I can't put it down to the corrupting nature of an extra adaptor, because the better wound was with the adaptor.
    • The only significant change was which DAC output I used.


    So that was unexpected. The only think I can think of is the fact that the Balanced out on the DAC is 6.8Vrms and the RCA out is only 2.2Vrms. Either something about the DAC's balanced out circuit is better than their RCA circuit, or the Amplifier liked something about the higher voltage source, or.... BTW: the amp's sensitivity is 900mV and input impedance is 70k.
    Bruce

    Theories are not so much answers as questions, to be supported or undermined by experience & testing.

    Source: Audiolab 6000CDT > Calyx 24/192 DAC
    Amplification: Pass-design B1rev2 pre-amplifier > Neurochrome Modulus 686.
    Loudspeakers: Proac Response 1SC
    Cables/stands: spkr: MIT MH-750 biwire; IC: HT Truthlink; Target stands, sand-filled; Excel Cat6A 23AWG UFTP & 1attack.de Cat.7 SFTP.
    Other: Balanced AC transformer to hydra mains distr; Bass traps & Acoustic panels; Isolation: Inner tube & roller bearings; 3xZyxel ES104A switches in series w/Vreg upgrades.

  2. #2
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: Notts

    Posts: 2,743
    I'm Geoff.

    Default

    I have found a balanced XLR connection to be superior to the RCA phono connection between my DAC and monoblocks.

    I originally made the switch to XLR because of the purchase of monoblocks which are now located in a plinth underneath my Magneplanar 1.7 speakers. I was not expecting the change in sound. With XLRs the volume was significantly higher than with the RCA interconnects (for the same volume settings). However, dynamics and detail also improved as did the solidity of the image.

    The longer XLR cables were modestly priced and cost much less than the 1m RCA interconnects they replaced. This change was evident even before I replaced my 3m speaker cables with 0.5m cables (just long enough to span the gap between amps and speakers) and before the introduction of the plinth which has improved speaker stability (an issue with Maggies resting on carpet I have found).

    I cannot explain the difference and did not expect it. My motivation was to accommodate having the monoblocks as close to the speakers as possible.

    Geoff

  3. #3
    RothwellAudio Guest

    Default

    I'm a bit confused by that explanation. Are you saying you normally use a pre-amp but for these tests you went straight from DAC to power amp?
    Also, there's a nystery element to the setup - the "XLR-RCA adapter from MicroXpress". What is that? More precisely, what happens to pin 3? These details are important.

  4. #4
    Join Date: Mar 2012

    Location: West Yorkshire

    Posts: 274
    I'm Bruce.

    Default

    Yes, I normally use an active preamp in between source and amp. Since it failed last week, I've been trying alternatives. Since one of the loaners i was going to receive was single ended only, in anticipation I switched the Amp to the 'Regular' single ended circuit, via jumper. I used a 1 meter IC directly between DAC and Amp. Volume control is digital using the 64bit in JRiver's player on my server. Then played to see if my 'baseline' sound had changed from the XLR setup. It had. So I had to get used to that sound before auditioning a new preamp. Then out of curiosity I used the adaptor and plugged the RCA into my DAC's XLR out. And the sound went back nearly to what I hear when using the Balanced setup. I've switched back and forth several times, leveling the volume each time, and it's consistent and repeatable.

    The adapator is http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111803097651. Pin 3 is jumpered to Pin 1 and chassis.
    Bruce

    Theories are not so much answers as questions, to be supported or undermined by experience & testing.

    Source: Audiolab 6000CDT > Calyx 24/192 DAC
    Amplification: Pass-design B1rev2 pre-amplifier > Neurochrome Modulus 686.
    Loudspeakers: Proac Response 1SC
    Cables/stands: spkr: MIT MH-750 biwire; IC: HT Truthlink; Target stands, sand-filled; Excel Cat6A 23AWG UFTP & 1attack.de Cat.7 SFTP.
    Other: Balanced AC transformer to hydra mains distr; Bass traps & Acoustic panels; Isolation: Inner tube & roller bearings; 3xZyxel ES104A switches in series w/Vreg upgrades.

  5. #5
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,861
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherwood View Post
    I have found a balanced XLR connection to be superior to the RCA phono connection between my DAC and monoblocks.

    I originally made the switch to XLR because of the purchase of monoblocks which are now located in a plinth underneath my Magneplanar 1.7 speakers. I was not expecting the change in sound. With XLRs the volume was significantly higher than with the RCA interconnects (for the same volume settings). However, dynamics and detail also improved as did the solidity of the image.

    The longer XLR cables were modestly priced and cost much less than the 1m RCA interconnects they replaced. This change was evident even before I replaced my 3m speaker cables with 0.5m cables (just long enough to span the gap between amps and speakers) and before the introduction of the plinth which has improved speaker stability (an issue with Maggies resting on carpet I have found).

    I cannot explain the difference and did not expect it. My motivation was to accommodate having the monoblocks as close to the speakers as possible.

    Geoff
    That is what I have done: replaced 1 metre of coaxial interconnects and 10 metres of speaker cable, with 10 metres of balanced-line interconnect and < 1 metre of speaker cable.
    Barry

  6. #6
    Join Date: Feb 2017

    Location: Sussex

    Posts: 324
    I'm Simon.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brucew268 View Post
    Yes, I normally use an active preamp in between source and amp. Since it failed last week, I've been trying alternatives. Since one of the loaners i was going to receive was single ended only, in anticipation I switched the Amp to the 'Regular' single ended circuit, via jumper. I used a 1 meter IC directly between DAC and Amp. Volume control is digital using the 64bit in JRiver's player on my server. Then played to see if my 'baseline' sound had changed from the XLR setup. It had. So I had to get used to that sound before auditioning a new preamp. Then out of curiosity I used the adaptor and plugged the RCA into my DAC's XLR out. And the sound went back nearly to what I hear when using the Balanced setup. I've switched back and forth several times, leveling the volume each time, and it's consistent and repeatable.

    The adapator is http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111803097651. Pin 3 is jumpered to Pin 1 and chassis.
    If I'm honest I was struggling to work out what tests you did and connections you have Bruce. Sorry.

    Your experience is similar to mine. I swapped rca for xlr cables between my cyrus pre/dac and monoblocks which are both balanced designs. I swapped from chord signature tuned array rca to chord signature tuned array xlr and had both these cables on loan and was switching between the two. It was obvious the xlr had more detail, dynamics and just a better airiness and naturalness with the xlr. Bass was tighter too. So I bought the xlr variant of the cable in the end.

    But what I think you are describing is that I think it's not often easy to predict if xlr cables will get benefits because it depends, in different make components, how the xlr circuits talk to each other and how well they intergrate. So you could use one brand pre amp and another brand power amp and get no decent discernible differences between xlr and rca, and then have a different pre and power combo of different makes, and it does make a good difference. I haven't heard many people say that the rca connection is the same as the balanced xlr connection on same make components that are true balanced designs. If the circuits aren't balanced too between components but have xlr connections for the sake of connectivity, from what I've read I don't think it makes a jot of difference connecting up a unbalanced component to a true balanced one using Xlr. The same with sources too.

    Also isn't it conceivably the case that even if the xlr connection has a more direct path to the amps circuits the sound could potentially be better too, so it may strike out what I've said. The bottom line is I don't think you can predict if it makes a sq difference, other than the try and see.

  7. #7
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: Notts

    Posts: 2,743
    I'm Geoff.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    That is what I have done: replaced 1 metre of coaxial interconnects and 10 metres of speaker cable, with 10 metres of balanced-line interconnect and < 1 metre of speaker cable.
    and did you find this an improvement as I did?

  8. #8
    Join Date: Mar 2012

    Location: West Yorkshire

    Posts: 274
    I'm Bruce.

    Default

    Sorry for all the details. The surprising upshot is that an XLR connection sounded better than the RCA in my system, and it does not seem to be for any of the reasons that are usually given for using Balanced setups. I never would ave predicted that.
    Bruce

    Theories are not so much answers as questions, to be supported or undermined by experience & testing.

    Source: Audiolab 6000CDT > Calyx 24/192 DAC
    Amplification: Pass-design B1rev2 pre-amplifier > Neurochrome Modulus 686.
    Loudspeakers: Proac Response 1SC
    Cables/stands: spkr: MIT MH-750 biwire; IC: HT Truthlink; Target stands, sand-filled; Excel Cat6A 23AWG UFTP & 1attack.de Cat.7 SFTP.
    Other: Balanced AC transformer to hydra mains distr; Bass traps & Acoustic panels; Isolation: Inner tube & roller bearings; 3xZyxel ES104A switches in series w/Vreg upgrades.

  9. #9
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,861
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherwood View Post
    and did you find this an improvement as I did?
    Not a noticable improvement as such. I just like the idea of balanced circuitry and thus balanced-line interconnects; so it is a satisfying completion of an ambition.

    It is my aim to have my system completely balanced from source to speaker. At the moment my CD player has balanced outputs, and my pre- has balanced inputs as well as outputs, as do my monoblock power amps. Since pick-up cartridge are essentially balanced components, I'm looking for a balanced phonostage.
    Barry

  10. #10
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,173
    I'm Jez.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Not a noticable improvement as such. I just like the idea of balanced circuitry and thus balanced-line interconnects; so it is a satisfying completion of an ambition.

    It is my aim to have my system completely balanced from source to speaker. At the moment my CD player has balanced outputs, and my pre- has balanced inputs as well as outputs, as do my monoblock power amps. Since pick-up cartridge are essentially balanced components, I'm looking for a balanced phonostage.
    I can make you one... Balanced in and out is I presume what you want?
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

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