Hullabaloo in the AudioWorks room

[Marco]

It isn’t normally our policy to comment on discussions occurring on other forums; however I’ll make a special exception on this occasion as one of our trade members is being misrepresented and portrayed in a bad light, which is extremely unfair. Furthermore, I was there and I saw what happened so I can provide insight into the incident.

The two guys being referred to on the Pink Fish Media forum who attended the cable demonstration in the AudioWorks room at the Manchester hi-fi show at the weekend clearly had a predetermined plan to do little more than take the piss – this was blatantly obvious by their attitude throughout the demonstration and particularly at the end when questions were being asked. They definitely had an agenda.

As an aside, a point that should be considered in these types of demonstrations is that it’s just as easy not to want to hear something as it is the opposite… Expectation bias cuts both ways, and can cause (in this case) selective ‘deafness’ just as much as it can dupe the cable ‘believer’ into hearing things that might not actually be there. Anyway, it was fairly obvious that these guys had made up their mind before they came into the room what the result of the demonstration would be, and no amount of sensible debate was likely to change their mind.

As for the actions of Steve Jackson, of The AudioWorks hi-fi dealership, who conducted the stand and cable demonstration, he handled the situation impeccably and was polite and informative throughout answering any questions knowledgeably and constructively. However the two guys in question just didn’t want to entertain the notion that what Steve was explaining regarding the design philosophy behind the stands and cables he was demonstrating might actually have some merit. They were rather impolite in their style of questioning, which was clearly done with the intention to irritate.

When the debate descended into nothing more than a pointless argument Steve simply said that he no longer wished to hear what they had to say, so the two guys took the huff and left, ridiculing Steve’s method of demonstrating in the process. That’s it basically. Steve was most certainly not rude or aggressive to them in any way. For them to suggest otherwise is simply to embellish the situation for their own ends.

As for the results of the demonstration itself, the differences between the stands and cables could clearly be heard: *IF* you know what to listen for (look for how music is impacted on not for hi-fi effects) and, somewhat crucially, if your mind is open enough not to allow prejudices to cloud your judgement, as is always the case in these situations.

I’ll leave Rob and Steve, who were also present during the demonstration, to add their thoughts on the matter.

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

Agreed 100% with the above analysis. For the record, this is no slight against Pink Fish whatsoever. The two guys had already expressed their views and behaved like pompous egotistical fools well before they put pen to paper over there. I quite like how the discussion has ultimately gone there tbh. Sufficient numbers of people have come along and balanced things out.

[Marco]

Indeed - and I would just like to reiterate that my starting this thread was in no way intended as a slight against Pink Fish.

I simply felt that a more balanced view of events should be given, particularly as I was there when it happened, and The AudioWorks are one of our members. Let's hope that people get a chance to read this as much as they have the stuff that's written on PFM. They will have a rather jaundiced view of events otherwise.

Marco.

[Filterlab]

I found their behaviour a little odd. Of the two, one of the guys made some fair points but I think in his heart of hearts he could actually hear a difference as when he addressed Steve he couldn't look him squarely in the eye. The other chap (closer to the door) was simply being arrogant and argumentative for the sake of it, trying in desparation to argue against something that was clear to everyone else in the room just because he couldn't understand it from a scientific standpoint.

In itself debating against this type of tweakery is not an issue as this particular debate has been going on for years, but it was just the way they went about it - not even listening to Steve whom quite clearly knows his subject extremely well and also believes passionately in what he demonstrates. Unfortunately for the two guys who tried to argue their point (and not very well) Steve handled the situation impeccably well and addressed all their questions with valid answers until it reached the point at which they became unnecessarily contradicatory and argumentative, only then did he ask them to leave so he could continue with his demonstration.

Personally I found the way in which they conducted themselves to be a little out of order and not really befitting of a hi-fi show, and they could have been a little more constructed and concise in their perfectly legitimate arguments. It's a shame when things like that do happen, but it's all the more satisfying that the demonstration showed that Audioworks' point is very valid and the improvements are there to be heard by all those who listen with their ears and not their oscilloscopes.

Also, it's so clear to see that Steve, Rick and Larry are very passionate and enthusiastic about the products they sell - especially Steve who has a real hard time standing still when the music's playing. He's like a one-man audience.

[Marco]

Indeed - excellent post, Rob.

What I'd like to know is why these people don't bring their oscilloscopes with them into hi-fi dealers demo rooms when auditioning equipment, as they obviously can't trust their ears to 'measure' differences. If they're going to make the argument that 'if it can't be measured it doesn't exist' then how do they choose equipment because not every aspect of the sound of a hi-fi system is measurable. The fact is you have to make a subjective assessment at some point about what type of sound you prefer. Most people buy equipment, stands, cables, or whatever on the strength of what they hear - I often wonder what mechanism/method of evaluation these guys use when buying equipment to assemble a hi-fi system?

Or maybe they never buy equipment from a dealer because that process would involve using their ears at some point rather than buying equipment as a result of the technical specifications in a magazine review or a recommendation from someone they trust (read as 'has a similar mentality and prejudices')...

It's all very bizarre and something I've never been able to understand

Some people inhabit a very strange world.

Marco.

[Rick O]

Like I've always said, it's a shame people lose site of the wood for the trees.

Do you buy hi-fi to make a good noise, or to enjoy music on? Surely appreciation for music is the only reason people buy hi-fi.

Edit: Just read through it... a lot of personal liblism in that thread. :/

[Marco]

http://www.zerogain.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18173

Since this nonsense is being perpetrated further on Zerogain and the good name of an established, well regarded and popular hi-fi dealer tainted by fools with an obvious agenda (see above link), I thought we should once again provide some balance, as I know some of the Zerogain membership are watching.

There are too many factual inaccuracies to address in the (largely) fictitious dialogue presented by "Simon" on the thread in question, and I neither have the time nor the inclination to systematically dissect and expose the lies contained within that dialogue. However, one thing sticks out which shows conclusively the agenda "Simon" and his mates had that day.

Simple Simon says on Zerogain (sorry, I couldn't resist!):

...Then we ventured into the AudioWorks room. Spectral Amps, Avalon Speakers, DCS Paganini, i think, all wired and fired with his selection of hi-zoot mains blocks and interconnects etc etc and all on his new guitar shape shelves.

Well frankly for the cost of the gear it sounded crap, just plain bloody awful, i have heard better in Dixons.

Strange how I distinctly remember him saying when I asked if he actually heard any difference between the stands and cables, to which he replied "no, there was no difference whatsoever", that he then added, and I quote: "It was a nice system, but it was nice system regardless of what stands and cables were being used".

Does anyone else remember him saying this? I remember it quite clearly.

So if it was a "nice system", at what stage did its performance reduce to become "plain bloody awful"? And: "I have heard better in Dixons.", particularly as he was on the way out the door by that stage?

Mmmm... Care to comment, "Simon"??

Was it after you took umbrage at your petty and pathetic little games being exposed for what they were on this forum?

Could it in fact be said, "Simon", that your whole version of events is a crock of shit written to give you willy-waving rights amongst your fellow cable and stand cynics on Zerogain??? They obviously think you're wonderful, so job done I guess.

I conclude that this character is just an attention seeker with some obvious prejudices and not worth giving further consideration. No wonder the guys at The AudioWorks aren't taking the situation seriously - wise move, guys!

However, this comment from a moderator on Pink Fish needs to be addressed:

Rob Holt wrote:

I'd hardly call a link to a fan boy site which has latched onto the latest craze 'balanced'.

First of all, Robert, The Art of Sound is most certainly not a "fan boy" site, or whatever other currently fashionable terminology from Pink Fish you care to use. We support all dealers and manufacturers, not just the AudioWorks, and unlike (as it seems) on Zerogain, both they and their products are given the respect they deserve.

Secondly, which "latest craze" are you referring to? I have to confess that I haven't the slightest clue what you're on about!

Thirdly, and most importantly, as a moderator and a person of responsibility on a major UK audio forum like Pink Fish you should not be writing petty insults about another forum as you have done. It is completely irresponsible and uncalled for. Should we return the favour and start slagging Pink Fish?

No, I don't think so. I am, quite frankly, disappointed in you. In future, please refrain from making inflammatory comments about our forum in the public domain.

Thanks in advance.

Marco.

[Filterlab]

Wouldn't worry about it mate, their comments are nothing more than childish rants and their opinions will not affect us, our regular members, our trade members or Audioworks.

[Marco]

Indeed!

I see that I'm now being referred to as an "idiot", ironically by someone with one of the most idiotic usernames I've ever read "shinOBIWAN":

Its a windup right? Complete and utter BS from dealers, I hate slimey cable salesmen. Don't know about anyone else but it takes a HUGE change in sound to go from scowling to foot tapping and not just this from that idiot Marco, {blather, waffle, etc...}

LOL. We'll leave them to it.

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

I'll reiterate that we have no issue with Pink Fish or Zerogain. The comments here are directed to what is said not where it is said.

There is also a clear breach of the Accepted User Policy on PFM that still needs to be addressed (I'm sure it will be when TonyL has a look...) It's the one of not mentioning banned members. If such a banned member doesn't have the right of reply over there then he's going to reply where he can.

Meanwhile I really don't want interforum squabbles. That's not what we are about.