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Thread: Direct drive vs Idler drive vs. belt drive: Which is the "right" path?

  1. #1
    Join Date: May 2015

    Location: Greece

    Posts: 249
    I'm Panos.

    Default Direct drive vs Idler drive vs. belt drive: Which is the "right" path?

    Lots of ink has been devoted defending or attacking the three major turntable design principles, namely belt drive, idler drive and direct drive. Many of us may have already taken sides, having a clear preference. For the rest of us, who are still trying to make up our mind, what do you think are the pros and cons of each design?

    Please, correct me if I am wrong, but the prominent choices IMHO are as follows:

    Belt drive: countless; I am not getting in trouble to mention any.
    Idler drive: Garrard, Lenco, Thorens, (other?)
    Direct drive: Technics SP10, Denon DP80, 70, Kenwood, Sony, etc.

    Which is the design principle that can provide the best sound quality, theoretically and in practice?

    Cheers,
    Panos
    Last edited by pankon; 17-04-2017 at 16:02. Reason: I mentioned "Technics" in the idler drive TTs. I meant to say "Thorens".
    System1: Lenco L75 with custom plinth, SLAT, sph bearing, SG4 external power supply + Alfred Bokrand AB-309 tonearm + Denon DL103R (aluminum body) + Well Tempered 12" tonearm clone + Denon DL103R (wooden body), ASR Mini Basis Exclusive HV, Marantz CD6005, LAB12 DAC1 SE+, Hattor BIG passive + active pre, Lab12 Suono power amp, Falcon LS3/5a Gold Badge, LAB12 Gordian, Belden 8428, Black Cat Red Level Triode, LAB12 Knack MkII

    System 2: Roksan Xerxes original (HiFi Inspire plinth) with Maxon ReMax motor + Audiomods Series6 + Ortofon Cadenza Black microridge retipped, ASR Mini Basis Exclusive, Marantz CD6003, Croft Micro25R + Series7R monoblocks (110W/ea), Harbeth SHL5 Plus 40th Anniv.

    System 3: Marantz CD6003, Croft SuperMicroII ('R' spec by Croft, Tesla E83CC in phono)+ Series7, Snell Type EII (with bypass caps, new internal wiring, WBT nextgen 0703Cu), Mark Grant HDX1, Atlas Hyper 3.0

  2. #2
    Join Date: Apr 2016

    Location: Gravesend and France

    Posts: 1,498
    I'm paul.

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    Not aware of a technics idler, Thorens yes.
    Direct drive always bang on speed from cold is a pro ime.
    Bakoon 13r Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 in a Martin Bastin body with jico stylus, project ds2 digital Rullit aero 8 field coils in tqwt speakers

    Office system, DIY CSS fullrange speakers with aurum cantus G2 ribbons yulong dac Sony STR6055 receiver Jvc QL-A51 direct drive turntable, Leema sub. JVC Z4S cart is in the house

    Garage system another Sony receiver, cassette deck


    System components are subject to change without warning and at the discretion of the owner.

  3. #3
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Norwich

    Posts: 2,814
    I'm Hugo.

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    There are good and bad examples of all drive types in record players, so there is no 'right path'. Rotational speed accuracy is but one consideration when it comes to designing a good record player; also let's not forget that superb published W&F figures for many direct drive decks conceal micro speed variations that are musically destructive (the brain is very sensitive indeed to small timing anomalies), so the supposed technical advantages of direct drive are not necessarily what they might seem on paper. I reckon that it is easier to design a good sounding belt driven deck than one with direct drive; and certainly easier than making an idler truly quiet, which is why most decks are belt driven. I further reckon that the record players that truly work in the musical sense are those that successfully address internal and external acoustic energy management, as well as having a stable drive.

    For what it's worth, the two decks that I use are a Kenwood KD-990 (direct drive) and a Thorens TD-124 Mk2 (idler drive). The two are not a million miles apart in terms of musical performance, but the silence of the Kenwood is lovely. The Thorens plays music way better than something so complicated has any right to, once set up carefully and fitted with a good tonearm.

    It's all Horses for Courses

  4. #4
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: Near Accrington, Lancs, UK

    Posts: 307
    I'm Ralph.

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    Kenwood also made a couple of nice idlers. I'm pretty sure one them was a copy of the Thorens TD124 hybrid. I have one of the others without the belt. No cast alloy chassis just plain pressed steel. I would imagine they would have been dirt cheap back in the day. I seem to remember Pioneer had something similar just before they marketed the PL12. I sometimes wonder if Kenwood, Pioneer and a few other bought these in and badged them up.
    Ralph.

  5. #5
    Join Date: May 2015

    Location: Greece

    Posts: 249
    I'm Panos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulf-2007 View Post
    Not aware of a technics idler, Thorens yes.
    Direct drive always bang on speed from cold is a pro ime.
    Paul, you seem to own a DP80, a legendary DD turntable. In case you have experience with other belt-drive and idler-drive TTs, how would you rate your DD turntable against them? I am particularly interested in sound quality.

    Thanks,
    P.
    System1: Lenco L75 with custom plinth, SLAT, sph bearing, SG4 external power supply + Alfred Bokrand AB-309 tonearm + Denon DL103R (aluminum body) + Well Tempered 12" tonearm clone + Denon DL103R (wooden body), ASR Mini Basis Exclusive HV, Marantz CD6005, LAB12 DAC1 SE+, Hattor BIG passive + active pre, Lab12 Suono power amp, Falcon LS3/5a Gold Badge, LAB12 Gordian, Belden 8428, Black Cat Red Level Triode, LAB12 Knack MkII

    System 2: Roksan Xerxes original (HiFi Inspire plinth) with Maxon ReMax motor + Audiomods Series6 + Ortofon Cadenza Black microridge retipped, ASR Mini Basis Exclusive, Marantz CD6003, Croft Micro25R + Series7R monoblocks (110W/ea), Harbeth SHL5 Plus 40th Anniv.

    System 3: Marantz CD6003, Croft SuperMicroII ('R' spec by Croft, Tesla E83CC in phono)+ Series7, Snell Type EII (with bypass caps, new internal wiring, WBT nextgen 0703Cu), Mark Grant HDX1, Atlas Hyper 3.0

  6. #6
    Join Date: May 2015

    Location: Greece

    Posts: 249
    I'm Panos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ammonite Acoustics View Post
    ...also let's not forget that superb published W&F figures for many direct drive decks conceal micro speed variations that are musically destructive (the brain is very sensitive indeed to small timing anomalies), so the supposed technical advantages of direct drive are not necessarily what they might seem on paper...

    It's all Horses for Courses
    Hugo, I see where you are coming from with respect to speed micro-anomalies. But if DDs cannot eliminate such anomalies, can belt-drive and idler-drive TTs do it better?

    Although you imply that belt-drive decks can have an advantage over idlers and DDs, however, you have personally the latter two..

    Cheers,
    P.
    System1: Lenco L75 with custom plinth, SLAT, sph bearing, SG4 external power supply + Alfred Bokrand AB-309 tonearm + Denon DL103R (aluminum body) + Well Tempered 12" tonearm clone + Denon DL103R (wooden body), ASR Mini Basis Exclusive HV, Marantz CD6005, LAB12 DAC1 SE+, Hattor BIG passive + active pre, Lab12 Suono power amp, Falcon LS3/5a Gold Badge, LAB12 Gordian, Belden 8428, Black Cat Red Level Triode, LAB12 Knack MkII

    System 2: Roksan Xerxes original (HiFi Inspire plinth) with Maxon ReMax motor + Audiomods Series6 + Ortofon Cadenza Black microridge retipped, ASR Mini Basis Exclusive, Marantz CD6003, Croft Micro25R + Series7R monoblocks (110W/ea), Harbeth SHL5 Plus 40th Anniv.

    System 3: Marantz CD6003, Croft SuperMicroII ('R' spec by Croft, Tesla E83CC in phono)+ Series7, Snell Type EII (with bypass caps, new internal wiring, WBT nextgen 0703Cu), Mark Grant HDX1, Atlas Hyper 3.0

  7. #7
    danilo Guest

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    Recently threw out an old (bought it new though) TT from early 70's.
    It was an Idler design. In storage for years, the Idler rubber developed a huge dent in it.
    Unworkable and unfixable. I binned it.
    Someone else 'might' have repaired it..given enough time and determination.. wasn't going to be me tho.
    IMO Extra parts have a downside.

  8. #8
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,861
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danilo View Post
    Recently threw out an old (bought it new though) TT from early 70's.
    It was an Idler design. In storage for years, the Idler rubber developed a huge dent in it.
    Unworkable and unfixable. I binned it.
    Someone else 'might' have repaired it..given enough time and determination.. wasn't going to be me tho.
    IMO Extra parts have a downside.
    Sound like it had been stored with the speed selector engaged - something one should never do, be it cameras, reel-to-reel tape decks or turntables.
    Barry

  9. #9
    Join Date: Apr 2016

    Location: Gravesend and France

    Posts: 1,498
    I'm paul.

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    Only owned two belt drives, a transrotor based diy tt, transrotor bearing and platter and origin live motor in a very heavy pod with spikes , free standing, ok but just didn't do it for me. The other a revolver, nothing special at all, heard many belt drives, none had that great bass and timing. Three idlers, Garrard 401 in two tier oak plinth, Collaro 2010 in two tier oak plinth and Lenco ptp in a heavy ply plinth, all very nice, good bass and detail retrieval but the DP80 does it all right.
    Heard a voyd with fairly special arm, can't remember the make with strain gauge cartridge, laid back snoozeville.

    DP80, for me has superb detail retrieval, great bass clarity, excellent timing, can't ever see me changing it.
    Bakoon 13r Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 in a Martin Bastin body with jico stylus, project ds2 digital Rullit aero 8 field coils in tqwt speakers

    Office system, DIY CSS fullrange speakers with aurum cantus G2 ribbons yulong dac Sony STR6055 receiver Jvc QL-A51 direct drive turntable, Leema sub. JVC Z4S cart is in the house

    Garage system another Sony receiver, cassette deck


    System components are subject to change without warning and at the discretion of the owner.

  10. #10
    Join Date: Apr 2016

    Location: Gravesend and France

    Posts: 1,498
    I'm paul.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pankon View Post
    Paul, you seem to own a DP80, a legendary DD turntable. In case you have experience with other belt-drive and idler-drive TTs, how would you rate your DD turntable against them? I am particularly interested in sound quality.

    Thanks,
    P.
    i see you are in Greece, there is a fella there that rebuilt a DP80 with an aluminum and stainless steel plinth. Plinth was CNC cut by a company in Greece, they now make their own audio gear and tt's I think. Search diy audio for monsterizing a dp80.
    Bakoon 13r Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 in a Martin Bastin body with jico stylus, project ds2 digital Rullit aero 8 field coils in tqwt speakers

    Office system, DIY CSS fullrange speakers with aurum cantus G2 ribbons yulong dac Sony STR6055 receiver Jvc QL-A51 direct drive turntable, Leema sub. JVC Z4S cart is in the house

    Garage system another Sony receiver, cassette deck


    System components are subject to change without warning and at the discretion of the owner.

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