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Thread: Are you a tone guy or a details-retrieval guy?

  1. #71
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Indeed, Neil. Especially true is your last sentence, yet many folks don't seem to 'get' it...

    The reason for that, IMO, is because their ears have been conditioned for years (by manufacturers) into thinking that the sonic presentation I've described with a lot of today's kit is correct.

    Therefore, it automatically follows that when you hear something which notably deviates from that, it's considered as wrong, hence not as 'accurate' - and measurements don't help in that respect either.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  2. #72
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,774
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Rest assured, Joe, that your ears aren't deceiving you.

    The best vintage gear generally is more fun to listen to, simply because (for reasons I've already outlined), some of the 'fun factor' has been sucked out of the sound of today's kit, and traded instead for some false notion of 'accuracy' - and you can hear it in exactly the way you've described.

    Marco.
    I think you are right to put 'accuracy' in quotes, because I don't hear accuracy just a particular 'voicing' that I think is intended to give the illusion of forensic detail whilst majoring on the image/soundstage thing; but much as Brian is saying above, you end up throwing out the baby with the bathwater. This seems to be considered a 'good sound' nowadays, at least by the people who are selling it and buying it. It is usually ruinously expensive and definitely not for me.

    Perhaps there needs to be less concentration on the 'voicing' and more on the basic engineering, that is reducing noise and distortion as much as possible throughout the system. I know for me that since I dispensed with all the twaddle and adopted that approach I've made much better progress in getting to the sound I want.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  3. #73
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: N E Kent

    Posts: 51,624
    I'm Geoff.

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    Tone and timbre come from musical instruments and voices. Perhaps having it added to the sound from a Hi-Fi system is not good?
    It is impossible for anything digital to sound analogue, because it isn't analogue!

  4. #74
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,774
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by walpurgis View Post
    Tone and timbre come from musical instruments and voices. Perhaps having it added to the sound from a Hi-Fi system is not good?
    The only way a system can add tone and timbre is by adding noise and distortion. The ideal system will add and take away nothing. In principle of course, in practice nothing is perfect.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  5. #75
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by walpurgis View Post
    Tone and timbre come from musical instruments and voices. Perhaps having it added to the sound from a Hi-Fi system is not good?
    Agreed, Geoff, if in the instances we're discussing, that's what was happening, which it isn't.

    It's more like some of the tone and timbre, inherent in musical and instruments and voices, is being subtracted (more accurately traded, as everything in audio is subject to some form of compromise) in favour of 'detail retrieval'.

    And it's no 'accident' either. That type of 'voicing' by manufacturers is deliberate, simply because it's what folks have gotten used to these days, and thus consider as 'correct'!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  6. #76
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: N E Kent

    Posts: 51,624
    I'm Geoff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    The only way a system can add tone and timbre is by adding noise and distortion. The ideal system will add and take away nothing. In principle of course, in practice nothing is perfect.
    That is precisely what I was getting at.
    It is impossible for anything digital to sound analogue, because it isn't analogue!

  7. #77
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,774
    I'm Martin.

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    I thought so. We is on the same page, then
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  8. #78
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: N E Kent

    Posts: 51,624
    I'm Geoff.

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    The most obvious culprit (?) for adding 'tone and timbre' to the sound, is of course the speakers. All are coloured in one way or another and therefore impart artifacts/distortions.

    Yes. Even the largely flawless Quad ESL is guilty of this.
    It is impossible for anything digital to sound analogue, because it isn't analogue!

  9. #79
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

    Posts: 99,005
    I'm Grant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by walpurgis View Post
    The most obvious culprit (?) for adding 'tone and timbre' to the sound, is of course the speakers. All are coloured in one way or another and therefore impart artifacts/distortions.

    Yes. Even the largely flawless Quad ESL is guilty of this.
    Especially if made of wood
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  10. #80
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    I think you are right to put 'accuracy' in quotes, because I don't hear accuracy just a particular 'voicing' that I think is intended to give the illusion of forensic detail whilst majoring on the image/soundstage thing; but much as Brian is saying above, you end up throwing out the baby with the bathwater. This seems to be considered a 'good sound' nowadays, at least by the people who are selling it and buying it. It is usually ruinously expensive and definitely not for me.
    We are in total agreement there

    Perhaps there needs to be less concentration on the 'voicing' and more on the basic engineering, that is reducing noise and distortion as much as possible throughout the system.
    Yes indeed, but in IMO, the 'voicing' you're referring to has resulted through manufacturers obsessing too much over how well something measures, at the expense of how good something sounds; in short too much attention paid to test equipment, and not enough use of ears!

    The fact is, most commercially produced kit these days is made simply to be adequate or 'fit for purpose', rather than the best it possibly can, within a given price range, by someone with a passion and desire to do so, as indeed used to happen more at one time - and that's a MAJOR reason why the best vintage gear is often much nicer to listen to.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


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