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Thread: Speaker cable survey - does cable matter????

  1. #21
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: N E Kent

    Posts: 51,624
    I'm Geoff.

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    It's working OK.

    Not heard the rest, but I do like the CD-T.
    It is impossible for anything digital to sound analogue, because it isn't analogue!

  2. #22
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,779
    I'm Martin.

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    I've heard perfectly ordinary cables change the sound significantly if there was a serious amp/ speaker mis-match: if the amp was not liking the load I mean. Plus personal taste in presentation. That makes it hard to establish any sort of set 'character' to any specific cable.

    That there are speaker cables for sale that are deliberately designed to alter the signal in specific ways just adds mud to already muddy water.

    It doesn't help that you have a lot of engineer types who regard their textbook as the Koran and say there can never be any differences unless the cable is truly bizarre. So we never get any serious scientific investigation into the whole issue. (I'm not counting cable companies' 'research' here as it is just marketing puff). Like they did in the early days of audio we just have to try it for ourselves and report what we find.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  3. #23
    Join Date: Dec 2011

    Location: Athens

    Posts: 268
    I'm Dimitris.

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    There is a very interesting article by Nelson Pass dating back at the 80s. Tries to keep an open mind and provides measurements.

    http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_spkr_cable.pdf

    Interestingly enough, whenever I quoted it, those religious engineer types that need to explain everything with plain ohm's law, keep ignoring it and go on their merry way continuing to patronize and deride everyone that says that things could be more complicated when dealing with frequencies, even low ones.
    Sources: Modified SL1200 MK2, Salas folded RIAA, Phonoclone, VSPS, Shelter 501 MK2, Modified Pioneer P6D6 as transport, Shigaclone transport, Peter Daniel NOS DAC.
    Amplification: Custom 211 Monoblocks, Electrocompaniet AW120, Audio Research VS110, Gainclone
    Loudspeakers: Tannoy Turnberry, PBN Montana EP Signature
    Cables/stands: Tempflex ribbon and Twinax cables
    Other: Promitheus Signature Passive Attenuator, Custom JFET - transformer preamp.

  4. #24
    Join Date: Mar 2012

    Location: Gloucestershire

    Posts: 3,377
    I'm Paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    I've heard perfectly ordinary cables change the sound significantly if there was a serious amp/ speaker mis-match: if the amp was not liking the load I mean. Plus personal taste in presentation. That makes it hard to establish any sort of set 'character' to any specific cable.

    That there are speaker cables for sale that are deliberately designed to alter the signal in specific ways just adds mud to already muddy water.

    It doesn't help that you have a lot of engineer types who regard their textbook as the Koran and say there can never be any differences unless the cable is truly bizarre. So we never get any serious scientific investigation into the whole issue. (I'm not counting cable companies' 'research' here as it is just marketing puff). Like they did in the early days of audio we just have to try it for ourselves and report what we find.

    Good post Martin and for the large part, I agree. However it is not true to say that there has never been any serious research, because there has, plenty of it. Way back, in fact, after the first "golden geometry" was first rediscovered (and I say "rediscovered as it was initially designed in the early 1900's by Western Electric for telecommunications and low loss signal transmission ). Later, JBL did some pretty thorough research, as did other 'speaker manufacturers and amplifier manufacturers. There are still some speaker manufacturers who blindly claim that you can use any old bell wire or cooker wire with their speakers, but that's because they use highly inefficient system designs with high order passive filters which tend to mask any changes of a few metres of wire upstream (being cruel, some might also add that they also rob the music of music!)

    It's not really rocket science, it's audio engineering. Do people still actually believe that no-one understands what a speaker cable does or how it reacts to (possibly) change the sound dependant upon amplifier design and speaker load? It is well understood. The only people who don't seem to grasp that are some hifi enthusiasts themselves!

    In fact, it seems to be a prevalent attitude on here that most audio engineers are somehow tone deaf or not able to use their ears. We are able to, we have a perfectly evolved set ourselves (most of us! ) and we are NOT immune to hearing exactly what everyone else hears. Is it not quite derisory to suggest otherwise as a general statement? However, I don't know of any audio engineer who would dismiss claims of audible differences where clearly, they exist for reasons of cables introducing more reactance in an already reactive circuit. There may be one or two who blindly dismiss any claims of audibility irrespective, but In such cases, would you take what they had to say seriously since they've already called into question their own understanding? They are, thankfully, VERY few and far between.

    As you have pointed out, there is not some specific character that one can readily attribute to "cable A" over "cable B" simply because any cable is just a part of a circuit, admittedly a part without which there would be no sound...

    You also have many, many metres more cable, mostly very small gauge copper, mostly in a configuration that is in a more reactive part of the "circuit" downstream in that circuit of the speaker cable. That is contained within the filter inductors in the case of passive networks and in the drive unit voice coils themselves, so adding a metre or so of boutique cable up front sometimes has less of an effect than some would care to admit. However, in SOME situations, where the over-riding effects of altering anything between amplifier and filter are likely to be audibly reactive (eg poorly designed amplifiers that rely on cables for electrical damping, or highly demanding loudspeaker loads, or just plain weird loudspeaker loads...) then you are very likely to hear a difference, or if very unlucky, see smoke emanating from your amplifier in the most extreme cases, if using a highly reactive cable of some length.

    Speaker cables DO make a difference. Just how much of a difference depends entirely on the amp and speaker characteristics. It really is that simple. For the most part, in the case of sensibly designed amplifiers, well matched to the 'speakers, and where the speaker load is relatively benign, the main characteristic that matters is simply loop resistance and that can easily be worked out to ensure things like DF are adequate and that the geometry doesn't cause unwanted filter effects. There may well be those willing to spend many ££££'s on boutique speaker cables which use weird geometry's designed to be deliberately reactive at higher frequencies, or have little boxes attached ( many containing things like unnecessary RFI filters or Zobels, the latter actually rolling the signal off) and claiming wonderful things about what "it can do for YOUR system" without knowing anything whatsoever about YOUR system! Such claims are to be viewed with healthy suspicion.

  5. #25
    Join Date: Mar 2012

    Location: Gloucestershire

    Posts: 3,377
    I'm Paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dimkasta View Post
    There is a very interesting article by Nelson Pass dating back at the 80s. Tries to keep an open mind and provides measurements.

    http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_spkr_cable.pdf

    Interestingly enough, whenever I quoted it, those religious engineer types that need to explain everything with plain ohm's law, keep ignoring it and go on their merry way continuing to patronize and deride everyone that says that things could be more complicated when dealing with frequencies, even low ones.


    With respect, that article is hardly ground breaking news to any audio engineer and simply deals with reactance effects, and effects on unstable amp output circuits, and uses some very subjective assessment as well as measurement (some of which is highly questionable in the realms of audio, and the suspicious amongst us do view such things with healthy scepticism). To suggest that speaker cable connectors cause "...high amounts of harmonic and intermodulation distortion..." ....really?

  6. #26
    Join Date: Apr 2015

    Location: Central Virginia

    Posts: 1,736
    I'm Russell.

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    I am in the process of writing an article for an Italian magazine on this subject. A brief summery of it would be about how in modern times how stereo preamps have abandoned any equalization controls and send the signal straight through, hoping to preserve as much of the signal as possible. So now days people buy cables to attempt to equalize their stereos. Interconnects and Speaker wires are sold upon their ability to make the signal more lean, or less lean, fatter in the midrange, etc. to select a cable for your system depends on the nature of your gear. If it is bright, you buy rolled off cables to compensate, and visa versa.

    If you could hold your amp directly up to the speaker terminals, so no cable was used. A direct connection between the amp and speaker, that should theoretically be the ideal connection, no wire at all. And this is used by many as the goal of speaker cable designers to get as close to that ideal as possible. So, anything that a cable does to change that sound is completely subtractive. It is altering the signal by some subtractive nature, it cannot make signal, it cannot add anything to the signal, and if it does not sound exactly like no cable at all, then it is removing something. And the designers of cables do their research to determine what makes the most desirable outcome, which frequencies should be affected for the best sonic results? The materials that wires are made from are not intrinsically expensive, so when you are paying tens of thousands for a speaker wire, the majority of that money is to pay for the research and development, and to pay the designer for his choices, for his intellect. How much his intellect is worth is completely up to the individual.

    Personally, I can't see how they can justify a $40,000 pair of speaker wires. The materials are just not there, so $39,000 of that money pays the man for designing the wires. When you think about the research and development that went into designing a Lexus coupe of the same price, it begins to seem overpriced. But, that's just me. What the designer's intellect is worth is strictly up to the individual.


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  7. #27
    Join Date: Apr 2015

    Location: Central Virginia

    Posts: 1,736
    I'm Russell.

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    But for your research, my system is:

    Krell FPB-300, sold new for $9,000.

    Legacy Focus 20/20, sold new for $7,000.

    Cables number one are Legacy speaker wires, 8 foot pair, with WBT locking bananas. Price unknown. I don't think they make cables anymore? I Googled it and couldn't come up with anything, but I paid $400 used when I got the speakers. They came with the speakers to me.

    Cables number 2 are some home made 10 gauge OFC copper cables, just Siamese Monster cheap stuff, $1 a foot maybe? I terminated with gold plated spades.

    The homemade wires seem to be more bass heavy, the highs are nice, nothing wrong with them. But the Legacy cables are not as bass heavy, and seem to preserve more air at the top. But these observations are slight, far from major.


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  8. #28
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,779
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reffc View Post
    It's not really rocket science, it's audio engineering. Do people still actually believe that no-one understands what a speaker cable does or how it reacts to (possibly) change the sound dependant upon amplifier design and speaker load? It is well understood. The only people who don't seem to grasp that are some hifi enthusiasts themselves!

    In fact, it seems to be a prevalent attitude on here that most audio engineers are somehow tone deaf or not able to use their ears. We are able to, we have a perfectly evolved set ourselves (most of us! ) and we are NOT immune to hearing exactly what everyone else hears. Is it not quite derisory to suggest otherwise as a general statement? However, I don't know of any audio engineer who would dismiss claims of audible differences where clearly, they exist for reasons of cables introducing more reactance in an already reactive circuit. There may be one or two who blindly dismiss any claims of audibility irrespective, but In such cases, would you take what they had to say seriously since they've already called into question their own understanding? They are, thankfully, VERY few and far between.

    .
    No I don't think that at all, I'd dispute that it is the prevalent attitude on this site too, although there may be some who hold that view, or more likely have their view misinterpreted that way. I am very much for engineering-led solutions in audio. As they say an engineer is a man who can make for fifty pence what any fool can make for five pounds. Being tight I am all for approaches that make good audio kit cheaper.

    I do not think that the full story behind cables is known, since either there is more to it than just the LCR measurements, or we are more sensitive and /or the kit is more sensitive to small changes in LCR. Either way I think there is more to it than is currently acknowledged by the textbooks. Not taking about AoS specifically since this is a subjectivist forum, but there are a lot of engineering types out there in internet hi-fi land who will dismiss any claims of differences being heard in normally measuring cables as imagination. That is a quick and easy explanation to latch on to, thing is that it doesn't work - if you have actually heard these differences you don't buy that it is a flight of fancy.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  9. #29
    Join Date: Apr 2015

    Location: Central Virginia

    Posts: 1,736
    I'm Russell.

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    Especially if you do not hear what you expected. I was so sure that cables could not possibly make a difference! Empirical science says it cannot! But, upon my first listen at the local salon, I was sold, differences were blatantly obvious, and everyone in the room heard the same thing. Mass hallucinations? Seems very unlikely.


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  10. #30
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,779
    I'm Martin.

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    It's one of those irregular verbs

    I hear differences
    You might be imagining it
    He is away with the fairies.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

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