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Thread: Speaker cable survey - does cable matter????

  1. #41
    Join Date: Sep 2009

    Location: west mids, UK

    Posts: 3,268
    I'm Phil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamics View Post
    I used epic twin for a while before I upgraded to reference, but I agree not much comes close. The reference beats the twin but reference is not as good value.

    I went to a chord demo at Bristol 2017 and it was clear as day between odyssey, epic and epic reference . Then Sarum was a step up but the difference to the Sarum t (with Taylon) not huge for me. It was a naim/neat system worth at least £20k I'd say.

    People have been challenging me to a blind test on another forum. What I thought I could do is use speaker junction boxes as I don't like the idea of people repetitively swapping cables over and breaking a pin or scratching the back plate of my speakers. This way we could connect short lengths between the amps and one box, put all the cables between the box and another box before the speakers, and then another short length of wire. Or would this mess the sound up such it would degrade the test making it a difficult comparison. I maybe can't be bothered if I can't do that, but I may ask a firm if they would loan me boxes and we'd publish online. That way you'd get continuity with pressing a button.

    It would be a double blind abx test with me selecting tracks and repeating on each track, then they would have to get used to the differences, then I would test them too. What do you think. I may ask futureshop if they would assist with the boxes.
    I went to that demo but found it a bit hard as they played loads of different tracks . I would have preferred one or two track only to tell difference
    ou might slip, you might slide, you might
    Stumble and fall by the road side
    But don't you ever let nobody drag your spirit down
    Remember you're walking up to heaven

    Don't let nobody turn you around
    … Walk with the rich, walk with the poor
    Learn from everyone, that's what life is for
    And don't you let nobody drag your spirit down

    Eric Bibb

  2. #42
    Join Date: Mar 2012

    Location: Gloucestershire

    Posts: 3,377
    I'm Paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dimkasta View Post
    Well yes it was published 30 years ago



    You are a bit unfair here. Only a part of the article refers to problems caused by unstable wide bandwidth amps. And it is part of the demonstration that things are happening at frequencies above the audible spectrum as amps tend to have wider bandwidths.




    The good thing about technical talk is that it should be easy to pinpoint the subjective parts and try to replace them with objective observations in order to reject or accept them.
    I would sensirely be very interested in further discussing the parts you consider questionable.




    Does it really sound so strange that a pour connection in series with the signal can cause distortion?
    I have seen this many times and the audible effect is not subtle. Never pinpointed the distortion type though . It is the reason why I always both crimp/screw and solder my cable connectors
    .

    Errr...the distortion claim does sound strange, especially as there is no physical mechanism for any "harmonic" or "intermodulation" distortion to occur. That is plain, unadulterated, pure nonsense! I am not in dispute over poor connections and happen to use some very good connectors myself where things are not hard wired.

  3. #43
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    I'd also dispute the claims of harmonic or intermodulation distortion, but poor connections can increase contact resistance [and thus integrity], which *can* cause audible sonic degradation.

    At least that's certainly been my experience with both mains and signal cables

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  4. #44
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,778
    I'm Martin.

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    Sonic degradation can only be noise or distortion and technically speaking I think noise is a type of distortion.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  5. #45
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Yes, I agree - and it happens whenever the signal is interrupted or compromised in some way, so attach whatever description you like to the effect

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  6. #46
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,778
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Yes, I agree - and it happens whenever the signal is interrupted or compromised in some way, so attach whatever description you like to the effect

    Marco.
    I don't know. I've yet to be convinced that the type of plug used on a cable is audibly distinguishable.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  7. #47
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Fair enough.

    I've done the comparison enough times now to clearly hear the (admittedly subtle, but worthwhile) sonic improvements gained from, say, upgrading cheap, mass-produced, brass-constructed phono or banana plugs, with high-quality solid-copper or silver varieties.

    However, for best results, the same has to be done on the sockets to which they connect

    The problem is, most folks own commercially produced equipment and don't want to risk 'devaluing' it, fitting different sockets, and often having to drill out holes in cases, in order to get better ones to fit.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  8. #48
    Join Date: Dec 2011

    Location: Athens

    Posts: 268
    I'm Dimitris.

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    Any change in sound caused by exchanging parts is due to distortion by definition.
    We cannot claim there is a merit in using better parts without accepting that there is increased distortion in poor ones (noise, harmonics, frequency attenuation or whatever).

    And such harmonic distortion effects (including intermodulation) on conductive surfaces are real and are even used commercially on industrial real-time surface quality and corrosion monitoring systems.
    Sources: Modified SL1200 MK2, Salas folded RIAA, Phonoclone, VSPS, Shelter 501 MK2, Modified Pioneer P6D6 as transport, Shigaclone transport, Peter Daniel NOS DAC.
    Amplification: Custom 211 Monoblocks, Electrocompaniet AW120, Audio Research VS110, Gainclone
    Loudspeakers: Tannoy Turnberry, PBN Montana EP Signature
    Cables/stands: Tempflex ribbon and Twinax cables
    Other: Promitheus Signature Passive Attenuator, Custom JFET - transformer preamp.

  9. #49
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dimkasta View Post
    Any change in sound caused by exchanging parts is due to distortion by definition.
    We cannot claim there is a merit in using better parts without accepting that there is increased distortion in poor ones (noise, harmonics, frequency attenuation or whatever).
    Yes, I would agree, otherwise the change in sound was imagined. There has to be some form of mechanism (measurable or otherwise) responsible for effecting any genuine change.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  10. #50
    Join Date: Mar 2012

    Location: Gloucestershire

    Posts: 3,377
    I'm Paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dimkasta View Post
    Any change in sound caused by exchanging parts is due to distortion by definition.
    We cannot claim there is a merit in using better parts without accepting that there is increased distortion in poor ones (noise, harmonics, frequency attenuation or whatever).

    And such harmonic distortion effects (including intermodulation) on conductive surfaces are real and are even used commercially on industrial real-time surface quality and corrosion monitoring systems.

    Audible Inter-modulation distortion, and harmonic distortion come to that, cannot be caused by speaker cable connections to binding posts. You can have poor connections and audible improvements may be had by improving the connection. Often I've seen corroded or damaged cable at some soldered joints when repairing cables, and some very poor terminations. Done properly, impedance across most good connections will be less than 0.05 of an Ohm at DC across most binding posts junctions...(yes...I've measured them!) but not enough, unless really corroded or filthy, to make much of a difference. Connector reliability and durability matter far more. Personally, I use Furutech FP 202 connectors because I like them but they do come at a price. Nagamichi spade connectors are also superb and amazingly good value by comparison.

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