Dsd Native Problem

[terrys99]

Statement on ess sabre dacs.

Most of inner details are not in the data sheet....Sabre DAC works in purely DSD mode, the signal path in this mode is 1 bit input >32 bit fader> DSD filter performed in DSD domain > 6 bit DSD (DS PWM) DAC > analog

The fact that the DAC is 6 bit DOES NOT mean it's not DSD. Basic DSD is 1 bit but it can be any number of bits, in the case 6 if it helps the performance.

Number 1 is a subset of 6 - a 6 bit DSD offers better D/A performance than 1 bit , that's why it's there. It's still DSD though. Sabre in DSD mode DOES NOT use interpolation filters or any other PCM processing ...In fact Sabre DAC sounds better in DSD mode because signal path is simpler.

[lovejoy]

Hi Rich

Just wondered if these were direct DSD recordings you are trying to play? Most SACD/DSD recordings have already been converted to PCM for processing in the studio as this cannot be done in DSD.

Very true. Most of the stuff I was listening to were old analogue recordings that had been transferred directly to DSD. Some of the old Peter Gabriel and Genesis stuff was very good. The more modern stuff, not so impressive. I have a copy of Beck's Sea Change on DSD and the MoFi CD walks all over it. We're talking about a good mastering vs. a not so good one here though which probably proves the point that the mastering is more important than the medium it comes on.

[lovejoy]

Statement on ess sabre dacs.

Most of inner details are not in the data sheet....Sabre DAC works in purely DSD mode, the signal path in this mode is 1 bit input >32 bit fader> DSD filter performed in DSD domain > 6 bit DSD (DS PWM) DAC > analog

The fact that the DAC is 6 bit DOES NOT mean it's not DSD. Basic DSD is 1 bit but it can be any number of bits, in the case 6 if it helps the performance.

Number 1 is a subset of 6 - a 6 bit DSD offers better D/A performance than 1 bit , that's why it's there. It's still DSD though. Sabre in DSD mode DOES NOT use interpolation filters or any other PCM processing ...In fact Sabre DAC sounds better in DSD mode because signal path is simpler.

That's fascinating, thanks for that. It would be great to see some more in depth technical detail on this, but I suspect this is about as far as we'll get. I guess there are many different methods of implementing these DACs which will make the end result different every time. My Pioneer hires player handles DSD as I mentioned - That uses the ESS 9018 chip which from a block diagram point of view looks very similar. On the other hand my pre-amp - The Nad M12 uses the same DAC chip and yet will not play DSD at all which is somewhat frustrating.

500 SACDs is a very impressive collection though. I'd say you owe it to yourself to hear them on a seriously good piece of DSD playback hardware - I'm no expert on what are the best players/DACs though.

[terrys99]

I do think this is about has far has we will get.
It's just nice to know that we aren't being ripped off with snake oil.

Manufacturers should give more info on so called. Dsd compatible dacs,

[struth]

My big denon plays sacds quite well. Not that i have many. Pity its silver lol.

[terrys99]

I found all the info on ess sabre dac.
Very in depth.

Some might find it interesting. Link below,

http://www.esstech.com/files/4314/4095/4318/sabrewp.pdf

[terrys99]

2) Native DSD DAC processing

Back in 2011 I was asked by Jesus R of Simple Design/Sonore to help him start a DSD database of DAC manufacturers (the database link is here in our FAQ pages). Back then it was easy. We started with Mytek and a few others. Today there are hundreds of DACs that claim to be DSD-capable. We will put them in the DSD database if they accept DSF or DFF files directly (i.e not converted to PCM upfront, before the DAC). What happens internally can be any number of steps and conversions. Then comes the analog stage(s) and power supplies, and finally the analog outputs. One could say that the ultimate end goal is musicality, and that would be true. But it has become more important to try and understand what happens internally, because it is not always the case that one can listen to dozens of DACs and make good listening conclusions. Also, online forums and discussion communities tend to throw around terms and comments that need to have some consumer perspective. So, for those reasons I’d like to define two terms in the DAC world: Native DSD processing and it’s smaller subset, Native Direct DSD processing (aka Direct). In both cases the DSD signal is not converted to PCM and is therefore native. In the case of Direct the signal is not even processed digitally beyond being handled as a one bit signal. In my world both of these technologies have a good chance of producing beautiful DSD playback, given good power supplies and analog stages.

Examples of non-direct Native processing is when a DAC uses a SABRE 90XX chipset. The DSD signal is digitally processed, usually to 6 or 8 bits but remains DSD and is treated with DSD filters (to remove noise shaping artifacts) and then sent to the analog side. One could argue that FPGA processing like PS Audio’s Directstream, where one bit DSD is converted to 30 bit, 30Mhz, then processed “down” to DSD128, is another example of non-direct Native DSD processing. Meitner’s upsampling to DSD128 falls in this category for me, too.

[JimC]

''..............the database link is here in our FAQ pages....................

I've searched for ''DSD DAC'' in the FAQ section and got no results.
Apologies, must be being a bit slow, can you give us a link to your list please?

Cheers,

Jim.

[AlfaGTV]

DoP and DSD are the very same thing from my understanding. DoP, DSD Over PCM, is actually 1bit audio packaged within a PCM-like container, for compatibility reasons. In short, DoP is DSD in a different package, a bit like taking your SACD of Brothers In Arms and putting it in the jewel case of the CD only issue!
No "conversion" takes place, only adaptation of the transport vehicle.

In other words, there should be none, or at most neglible differences in audio quality. But, as you have reasoned around, different DACs perform differently when fed either PCM or DSD so i doubt we will ever reach concensus which sounds "best"!

I am a bit surprised that the OP finds two different analog convertors sounding differently as... er... Different! They should, because as most of us have discovered, bits are not just bits and do have significant differences!

[AlfaGTV]

quote from dCS page:

FAQ: What is DoP (DSD over PCM)?

The original idea for DoP was invented by dCS in 2011. It involves taking groups of 16 adjacent 1-bit samples from a DSD stream and packing them into the lower 16 bits of a 24/176.4 data stream. Data from the other channel of the stereo pair is packed the same way. A specific marker code in the top 8 bits identifies the data stream as DoP, rather than PCM. The resulting DoP stream can be transmitted through existing 24/192-capable USB, AES, Dual AES or SPDIF interfaces to a DoP-compatible DAC, which reassembles the original stereo DSD data stream COMPLETELY UNCHANGED.