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Thread: Dsd Native Problem

  1. #11
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

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    I'm Grant.

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    I agree. You could try wasapi; it may sound a bit different
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  2. #12
    Join Date: Feb 2017

    Location: U.K.

    Posts: 43
    I'm Terry.

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    Thanks to all who replied.
    I did try waspi , same thing.

    I have returned the irdac, for refund.
    Maybe The irdac 2 just sounds different.

    Can do without.
    Thanks again to all.

  3. #13
    Join Date: Apr 2009

    Location: Oakengates, Shropshire

    Posts: 654
    I'm Richard.

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    Looking at the datasheet of the ESS9016 DAC chip that the irDAC2 uses, I would say that is in no way 'native' DSD playback. Looking at the block diagram you have a combined DSD/PCM interface which hands the data to an upsampler before the digital to analogue conversion takes place. That surely must mean that all of the data hitting the DAC, regardless of how it came in, is dong so in a common format. You would need a completely separate decoding path if you were handling DSD natively i.e. converting a 1-bit/2.8224MHz (or multiples of) directly to analogue.

    SACD/DSD done properly (i.e. natively) to me sounds a lot more natural, relaxed and has this analogue like weight and tangibility over PCM. What I've heard of these hybrid decoders that take DSD and convert to high rate PCM lose all of these qualities. It seems the worst of all worlds to me. So it may simply be that having your computer convert DSD to PCM before it hits your irDAC does a better job of the conversion than your irDAC is doing.
    Rich

  4. #14
    Join Date: Apr 2009

    Location: Oakengates, Shropshire

    Posts: 654
    I'm Richard.

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    I think it's just some clever wording:

    It's native in the sense that it does not require any external devices to convert a DSD stream into something else before it hits the DAC, not in the sense that converting DSD into analogue is done without any intermediate stages. From what I know of the chipsets that handle pretty much any format you throw at them, they perform an intermediate conversion which will usually result in PCM before it hits the digital to analogue conversion stage. The truly native DSD DACs tend to be either DSD only or convert incoming PCM into DSD which then of course compromises your native PCM conversion. Given that the ESS DAC is an 'Ultra 32-bit 8 channel DAC' I can't imagine that it would be doing anything but converting DSD to PCM.
    Rich

  5. #15
    Join Date: Feb 2017

    Location: U.K.

    Posts: 43
    I'm Terry.

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    Richard!
    I read that using dop does not alter the dsd quality, is this correct?
    Or does it still change to pcm.

    I read on a review that dop is identical to dsd,
    What's you opinion.
    Thank you.

  6. #16
    Join Date: Feb 2017

    Location: U.K.

    Posts: 43
    I'm Terry.

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    Hi love joy

    Ok I have called arcam in the uk.
    I asked the question again.
    He put me through to arcam engineer.

    I explained about the pcm conversion ect...
    He confirmed that the irdac 2 is dsd native, and that there is no pcm conversion before analog,

  7. #17
    Join Date: Feb 2011

    Location: England

    Posts: 290
    I'm James.

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    The ESS DACs all use their 'Hyperstream' conversion. I can't find any info on how this works.
    From the little info I have found and what I have heard elsewhere (obviously can't verify) the Sabre's all convert to PCM before 'decoding'. I would really like to know for sure.
    All the Manufacturers using the Sabres seem to be saying ''Native DSD'' supported. But is this 100% accurate?

    Can anyone tell us what is actually going on inside a Sabre DAC? Lovejoy?

    From what I've heard so far I don't like DSD. But then if all I have listened to is a Sabre converting everything to PCM then I can't say I'm surprised.
    Just adding an Analogue Filter to a DSD stream also, to me, does not produce pleasing results.

    Give me a Multi-Bit PCM DAC anyday.

    Jim.

  8. #18
    Join Date: Apr 2009

    Location: Oakengates, Shropshire

    Posts: 654
    I'm Richard.

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    The information on the ESS data sheets is rather vague to say the least. It would probably take someone from ESS to explain how it works, assuming that's something they want to share with the outside world. All I can say for sure is that when you look at the block diagram, there is a conversion block which means that the DSD cannot possibly be being passed unmolested into the DAC and there is also filtering on the output. The whole point of DSD is a very simple signal path, so there are at least two extra stages going on in these DACs which have to be damaging to what comes out of the other end.
    I have one of the Pioneer hi-res players which handles DSD and that too has an ESS chip inside it. Through that DSD sounds pretty ordinary to me, and I've always put it down to the fact that the chip isn't dealing with the DSD directly (it even says that the output is 192KHz PCM and not DSD).

    Quite an easy way of getting a taste of what DSD/SACD sounds like is to get hold of an old Playstation 3. The original ones had DSD DACs in them. Just pop in an SACD and take the analogue out into your hi-fi and prepare to be surprised. It's a different sound altogether from anything involving PCM.
    Rich

  9. #19
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,779
    I'm Martin.

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    Hi Rich

    Just wondered if these were direct DSD recordings you are trying to play? Most SACD/DSD recordings have already been converted to PCM for processing in the studio as this cannot be done in DSD.
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  10. #20
    Join Date: Feb 2017

    Location: U.K.

    Posts: 43
    I'm Terry.

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    I agree with what your saying

    Running tests in foobar, I played back a sacd , using native.

    Foobar tells me. Playing dsd64 5545kbps. 2822400.
    My arcam driver states current sample rate 2822400

    Now by switching between pcm and dsd , there's a slight difference, pcm is louder more sparkle, dsd playback is more laid back, not in you face, so to speak.
    But like you said we don't know what the sabre dac is doing.

    I have looked at the sabre diagram and yes there's filters in the path.

    I have emailed ess asking what's being processed , if not to pcm then what.
    It will interesting to find out.

    The reason I started the thread was to see if sacd really sounded like, has I have over 500 sacd, given to me by a friend.

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