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Thread: How to achieve soundstage depth

  1. #1
    Join Date: Nov 2014

    Location: SE London

    Posts: 135
    I'm Oliver.

    Default How to achieve soundstage depth

    Having read many reviews where the listener describes sounds coming from behind the rear wall of the listening room (i.e "drums sound like they are in the back garden"), I can honestly say I have never heard music from my system that appears to emanate from behind the back wall, but would be great if I could achieve it.

    If anyone has achieved this in their systems, could you please advise how you got there, and maybe suggest some recordings that have obvious depth for me to try ?

  2. #2
    Join Date: Dec 2015

    Location: Alicante. Spain.

    Posts: 1,885
    I'm Adrian.

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    First it must be on the vinyl. Second a front end (cart/arm/deck) that can reveal the subtle spatial clues that portray the Acoustics of a venue, studio layering. Third wide bandwidth amplification. Four speakers that are transparent and extended at both ends, and lastly excellent interconnects and cabling. Oh and better not forget room interaction - complicated stuff.

    Oh and clean ears!
    Adey

    In perpetual pursuit.
    Technics SP10 mk2
    Jan Allaerts MC 1 Boron mk1 cart
    Miyajima Shilabe cart
    Hashimoto HM-X SUT
    Siggwan (gimballed not unipivot) Cocobola 12"
    Aurorasound Vida LCR Phonostage
    The Truth linestage
    Dave Slagle Autoformer Volume Controller
    Cary 805c SET amps
    Audio Note ANe-SPX speakers
    Townshend Isolda speaker cables
    Cardas Golden Presence interconnects

  3. #3
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: Notts

    Posts: 2,741
    I'm Geoff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OD1 View Post
    Having read many reviews where the listener describes sounds coming from behind the rear wall of the listening room (i.e "drums sound like they are in the back garden"), I can honestly say I have never heard music from my system that appears to emanate from behind the back wall, but would be great if I could achieve it.

    If anyone has achieved this in their systems, could you please advise how you got there, and maybe suggest some recordings that have obvious depth for me to try ?
    It takes a good system from front to end but I would suggest that the two ends of the chain are the most important. It is possible to create artificial 3d aural effects but they never sound quite right to me compared to "natural" recordings of live instruments and voices in real 3d space. So you need a good recording to start with. Then speakers: some designs will just not image well no matter what you play on them or the system that drives them. Speakers that do image well such as the LS35a are often in small cabinets or are point source type speakers such as electrostatics or single driver designs. In my experience, most of these speakers need some air around them to perform their 3d magic, my own Manegplanars and Rogers LS35a's included. Very few speakers can image well without some space behind them and I find that having some space behind the listening position also helps. It's all about room reflections I would guess but once heard it is difficult to move to a system that does not image well. It just makes it easier to follow all the parts of a performance!

    Geoff

  4. #4
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: N E Kent

    Posts: 51,624
    I'm Geoff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OD1 View Post
    Having read many reviews where the listener describes sounds coming from behind the rear wall of the listening room (i.e "drums sound like they are in the back garden"), I can honestly say I have never heard music from my system that appears to emanate from behind the back wall, but would be great if I could achieve it.
    My system does this. On records or CD. As suggested, recordings vary in ambient depth.

    This by Kate Bush has tremendous depth and ambience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTP6tEZ8yzM

    This by Shpongle has too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBpL...BoW9RDUtF6NuTH

    You should even get an impression of it through a computer sound system. Not that you may necessarily like either piece of music.
    It is impossible for anything digital to sound analogue, because it isn't analogue!

  5. #5
    Join Date: Mar 2010

    Location: Sheffield

    Posts: 2,898
    I'm Simon.

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    What shape is your room Oliver?
    Kuzma Stabi/S 12", (LP12-bastard) DC motor and optical tacho psu, Benz LP, Paradise (phonostage). MB-Pro, Brooklyn dac and psu, Bruno Putzeys balanced pre, mod86p dual mono amps, Yamaha NS1000m

  6. #6
    Join Date: Nov 2014

    Location: SE London

    Posts: 135
    I'm Oliver.

    Default

    I forgot to mention my system

    Sources :
    Gyrodec SE / OL Encounter 3c / DV 20X2L / Rothwell MCL
    Cambridge CXC / Caiman II with latest mods

    Croft 25R into Croft S7

    Harbeth C7ES3

    Listening room 25' long / 8' high, 9' wide for 12' of the length, and 12' wide for remaining 13' of length.
    System is in the 9' wide part of the room with speakers firing down the length. SWMBO will not allow me to set up in the wider section of the room !!!

  7. #7
    Join Date: Mar 2012

    Location: Gloucestershire

    Posts: 3,377
    I'm Paul.

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    Perceived soundstage depth is a combination of things but primarily the recording (and how it's been recorded and mastered), the room, and the speakers.

    However, some speakers are better at pulling off the "depth" thing because of their ability to swing dynamic changes and detail effortlessly. It's not confined to big high efficiency speakers, but these do it well, but only where high S/N is evident which means that everything in the signal chain must be engineered to match appropriately and have decent S/N capability, and of course, well engineered source components are used.

    I find that my Tannoy drivered creations pull off this trick but don't do the "hifi fireworks" trick of spreading the image across the walls and pinging details from spots in an arc across the listening stage like come do (which I also find irritating and false). Some position you towards the middle or rear of a concert hall (if we're talking classical for example) whilst some will place you right up front of the stage, close and personal. I prefer to be seated further back. Stereo isn't as evident (live) but the dynamic swings and the depth of the soundstage is. That's what I try to recreate at home although it'll never match the live dynamics of a concert hall. You'd be deaf very quickly if you tried it in a domestic setting.

  8. #8
    Join Date: Nov 2014

    Location: SE London

    Posts: 135
    I'm Oliver.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by farflungstar View Post
    First it must be on the vinyl. Second a front end (cart/arm/deck) that can reveal the subtle spatial clues that portray the Acoustics of a venue, studio layering. Third wide bandwidth amplification. Four speakers that are transparent and extended at both ends, and lastly excellent interconnects and cabling. Oh and better not forget room interaction - complicated stuff.

    Oh and clean ears!
    Adey

    In perpetual pursuit.

  9. #9
    Join Date: Mar 2012

    Location: Gloucestershire

    Posts: 3,377
    I'm Paul.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OD1 View Post
    I forgot to mention my system

    Sources :
    Gyrodec SE / OL Encounter 3c / DV 20X2L / Rothwell MCL
    Cambridge CXC / Caiman II with latest mods

    Croft 25R into Croft S7

    Harbeth C7ES3

    Listening room 25' long / 8' high, 9' wide for 12' of the length, and 12' wide for remaining 13' of length.
    System is in the 9' wide part of the room with speakers firing down the length. SWMBO will not allow me to set up in the wider section of the room !!!
    Are your speakers in free space or up close to a wall Oliver? I've found that Harbeths tend to work better in free space being thin walled designs. Even if you can pull them a metre out from the rear and away from sidewalls. I've also found that the C7ES3's work well near field too.

  10. #10
    Join Date: Nov 2014

    Location: SE London

    Posts: 135
    I'm Oliver.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by walpurgis View Post
    My system does this. On records or CD. As suggested, recordings vary in ambient depth.

    This by Kate Bush has tremendous depth and ambience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTP6tEZ8yzM

    This by Shpongle has too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBpL...BoW9RDUtF6NuTH

    You should even get an impression of it through a computer sound system. Not that you may necessarily like either piece of music.
    Thanks Geoff, I will give these tracks a listen.

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