How to achieve soundstage depth

[User211]

Try using DIRAC. That will teach you a lesson in what the room does for you WRT to imaging and FR response. You'll either like it or not. I didn't.

[OD1]

Thanks for the good suggestions

During next week I will play around with speaker placement, listen to the tracks suggested, play some simple acoustic music, & let you know the outcome.

I will also tinker with higher volume settings (after advising my neighbours ) to see if ambient clues are deeper in the recordings ?

Oliver

[Oldpinkman]

This whole soundstage depth thing is one of my big "nerdy" obsessions. Well, it was. I may have grown up

The very best I heard was in my Dad's living room, with ESL 63's about 6 ft apart, and just in front of the gap to their dining room

I get a really good result (again with ESL 63's) in my new living room

Yes - it has to be on the recording
Yes - the kit has to be up to quality
Yes - the room could play a part, and your tunnel wouldn't be my first choice

I don't think I have ever heard a convincing effect with speakers that are close to walls. Free space seems to be key. My speakers, ESL 63's really are only at their best at least 6 feet apart, on stands, at least 3 feet from a rear wall and the outer edges 2 feet from a side wall. They are a great dipole

But - critically - like all stereo - its a con. Well, its a trick. And like with visual tricks, some people get it better than others, and some people never get fooled at all. I can "see" Joan Armatradings voice from a point between and behind the speakers I could get up and touch (ask Cagey and Sovereign about this). But her voice isnt actually coming from there. There is nothing creating a sound which ACTUALLY comes from the point my hearing (and vision) pinpoints it at.

Actually - as a matter of science, the sound is coming from 2 points either side of where I perceive it. I have been conned. Given that I love this effect, I am fortunate to be a gullible sort, easily conned. But it is false

The underlined "vision" point may help. Try listening with your eyes closed or in pitch black and remove the visual cues. And , even if it upsets the tonal balance, bring the speakers forward away from walls just to see if it gives the effect

Of course a good spectacularly modified Pink Triangle helps

[plastic penguin]

IME good, deep soundstage is whether the recording is high quality (regardless of digital or analogue) and how your amp and speakers images.

[Macca]

This whole soundstage depth thing is one of my big "nerdy" obsessions. Well, it was. I may have grown up

The very best I heard was in my Dad's living room, with ESL 63's about 6 ft apart, and just in front of the gap to their dining room

I get a really good result (again with ESL 63's) in my new living room

Yes - it has to be on the recording
Yes - the kit has to be up to quality
Yes - the room could play a part, and your tunnel wouldn't be my first choice

I don't think I have ever heard a convincing effect with speakers that are close to walls. Free space seems to be key. My speakers, ESL 63's really are only at their best at least 6 feet apart, on stands, at least 3 feet from a rear wall and the outer edges 2 feet from a side wall. They are a great dipole

But - critically - like all stereo - its a con. Well, its a trick. And like with visual tricks, some people get it better than others, and some people never get fooled at all. I can "see" Joan Armatradings voice from a point between and behind the speakers I could get up and touch (ask Cagey and Sovereign about this). But her voice isnt actually coming from there. There is nothing creating a sound which ACTUALLY comes from the point my hearing (and vision) pinpoints it at.

Actually - as a matter of science, the sound is coming from 2 points either side of where I perceive it. I have been conned. Given that I love this effect, I am fortunate to be a gullible sort, easily conned. But it is false

The underlined "vision" point may help. Try listening with your eyes closed or in pitch black and remove the visual cues. And , even if it upsets the tonal balance, bring the speakers forward away from walls just to see if it gives the effect

Of course a good spectacularly modified Pink Triangle helps

Agree about the side walls, I have that problem. I disagree that stereo imaging is false, if you are hearing the vocal like that you are hearing what the engineer intended you to hear.

I don't go with the idea that imaging is like one of those magic pictures that some see easily and some don't or have trouble. My system you have to concentrate a bit to pick out the 'images', but I have heard systems that image holographically and there is no need to pay attention, it is just there.

To be faithful to the recording the imaging should always be behind the plane of the speakers. If vocalist or sax player or whatever is forward in the mix is out in front 'on the rug', or behind you or any other such marvel then it isn't right, even if you do like it.

[Oldpinkman]

I don't go with the idea that imaging is like one of those magic pictures that some see easily and some don't or have trouble. My system you have to concentrate a bit to pick out the 'images', but I have heard systems that image holographically and there is no need to pay attention, it is just there.

My system is pretty holographic. My point is the sound I "hear" from the middle of the speakers doesnt come from the middle of the speakers. It comes from the right speaker, and the left speaker and arrives at my right ear and left ear at slightly different times, and my brain constructs an image from what it hears that is wrong. If my brain was any good it would hear a sound from speaker A, and a sound from speaker B and know full bloody well that nothing was coming out of point C in the middle of them. Partly that illusion is about how well the trick works for you.

Its not that different to 3d cinema. As someone who has only one functioning eye I can promise you that you can have the best video equipment and recording in the world and I won't see a 3D image.

[struth]

Ive 2 eyes and dont see 3d either.

[Haselsh1]

This time around I have sound appearing about fifteen feet behind the speakers but central and sound coming from immediately left and right of the seating position. These side on sounds appear to be about six feet wide of my ears. This I attribute to the Uni-Q driver in the KEF's but I have heard imagery like this from Rogers LS3/5a's way back in the nineties. No other speakers I have ever owned have imaged like these two have.

[Macca]

My system is pretty holographic. My point is the sound I "hear" from the middle of the speakers doesnt come from the middle of the speakers. It comes from the right speaker, and the left speaker and arrives at my right ear and left ear at slightly different times, and my brain constructs an image from what it hears that is wrong. If my brain was any good it would hear a sound from speaker A, and a sound from speaker B and know full bloody well that nothing was coming out of point C in the middle of them. Partly that illusion is about how well the trick works for you.

Its not that different to 3d cinema. As someone who has only one functioning eye I can promise you that you can have the best video equipment and recording in the world and I won't see a 3D image.

I see your point. Yes it won't work if you can't hear on both sides of your head.

[Sherwood]

This thread has reminded me of an incident back in the 80's. I was re-arranging my hifi layout and (lazily) trying to reconnect a pair of speakers with my amp in situ. By mistake (AND DO NOT DO THIS YOURSELF) I connected the first pair of speakers across the two +ve terminals. I was playing a Carly Simon LP at the time and was astounded at the sound that emerged. Since it was playing the difference between the two stereo tracks, the main part of the track was cancelled out and in it's place the backing vocals took prominence with James Taylor sounding as if he was at the end of a tunnel. I played another dozen or so albums and found the effect was inconsistent but in general was most pronounced on naturally recorded albums with a good (wide and deep) sound stage. I wonder if this is linked to spatial imaging in some way?

Geoff