Expensive MC's, are they worth it?

[montesquieu]

Deccas are not for the noviciate. The build quality is poor (if not appalling), so there is often enormous sample to sample variation. In addition, Deccas are a 'law unto themselves'; what applies to most electro-dynamic cartridges doesn't necessarily apply to Decca cartridges. They can be a pain in the arse to set up and use, but if pampered will get you closer to the experience of live music unlike any other cartridge.

Sadly if you have a poor sample, or one that is badly installed and set up, you will be mystified as to what the fuss is all about.

I'd hardly call myself a novice Barry.

My conclusion from several goes at it is they are probably fine for 60s pop and rock but a bit shit regardless of setup or 'luck' (in terms of getting a mythical 'good one') for the sort of subtle, finely shaded lieder, chamber music and renaissance stuff I mainly listen to.

[struth]

Whouldnt immediately think of them and your music as an ideal match, but you never know i guess. Only heard one and i was unimpressed so it must have been a dodgy one or fitted wrong. Trouble was the guy thought it the bees knees

[paulf-2007]

When compared to a Decca (you can get a gold second hand for about £350 .. less for a Silver or Blue which can be upgraded later with a rebuild and a paratrace or fine line stylus fitted) then definitely not .. also the Decca will cost you about £250 for a rebuild when it comes time to retip so its long term running costs are low. A rebuild is a new armature and stylus so unlike a moving coil there is no worry of suspension collapse on an old cartridge .. and nothing compares to a Decca for listening experience .. This means you can get a used one and try it out and if you like it pay for a rebuild and it will still cost you under £600 or if you don't like it you can sell it and probably get back what you paid for it .. If you have a Mission 774/Mayware Formula 4/Hadcock/Keith Monks arm you owe it yourself to give one a go

second hand are as rare as rocking horse poo and a new super gold is stupid money for something so unpredictable. I do quite like the sound based on the brief experience I had.

[alphaGT]

I'm sure many of you already know this, but I'm going to say it anyway, for the rest of us. The differences between a MM and an MC are basically their construction. With an Moving Magnet, the coils are stationary, so they can have more windings and generate more voltage, created from a magnet on the back end of the cantilever waving over the coils. But, more windings, means more magnet to generate power, and what you get is higher output, but more weight on the other end of the cantilever.

MC cartridges have the magnets fixed, and the coils are on the back end of the cantilever waving them over the magnet. So, to keep that weight down, they use fewer windings and smaller wire, and that means the moving coil has far less weight on the back end of the cantilever. And that means it can react faster, it can change direction faster, and that means more detail from the grooves. But for every advantage their is a trade off. And that is that it puts out a tiny fraction of the current a moving magnet can. So, it requires a better phono preamp to get the extra gain without making extra noise and distortion. So why would anyone bother to spend more for a low output cartridge that requires more expensive amplification? Because it's worth it.

Don't get me wrong, there are some very fine sounding MM carts on the market! Easier to amplify, less likely to suffer from hum and noise with a less expensive preamp, like you may find built into older preamps and receivers. But, to get over the level of performance that MM is capable of, you go to MC carts and a better preamp.

But I've heard that one can get into a very good MC cartridge for around the $1000 range, not sure how many pounds that is today? I should say from $500 to $1000, but once you go over that amount the laws of diminishing returns kicks in hard. The prices go up steeply to get appreciably better, and that drives up the cost of cables, preamps, on up the line to appreciate that difference.

And I think logic dictates a certain level of spreading it around? Sure there are some low priced tables or perhaps you were lucky enough to get a great table at a low price, but on average, I plan to keep my prices level. If I've got a $1000 'table, it should have a $1000 arm. And a $1000 cartridge, but I'm not sure how much preamp that should need? And of course this rule is not carved in stone, if any one of these should cost more than the rest, perhaps it should be the cartridge? Presently I'm way under budget on my cartridge with a Sumiko Blue Point 3 Special. A $500 cart. But it is about one mile over my last cart! A Grado Gold. (Which is actually no better than the Silver, just the top 5% supposedly) but they sell more golds than silvers? So where are those other 95% of the silvers at? Anyway, I am seriously thinking of a cart in the $1000 range, so many great carts in that range to choose from! Or perhaps a $2000 cart used with low mileage? My Phonomena preamp isn't real expensive, but it's up to the task for now.

Thanks for letting me add my two cents, I've enjoyed reading this thread! I am learning a lot from you guys!


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[montesquieu]

Whouldnt immediately think of them and your music as an ideal match, but you never know i guess. Only heard one and i was unimpressed so it must have been a dodgy one or fitted wrong. Trouble was the guy thought it the bees knees

Yes this has been exactly my experience as well, on top of a couple of goes at trying to get them to sound decent in my own system. As Miss Jean Brodie once put it, 'For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like.'

But I've heard that one can get into a very good MC cartridge for around the $1000 range, not sure how many pounds that is today? I should say from $500 to $1000, but once you go over that amount the laws of diminishing returns kicks in hard. The prices go up steeply to get appreciably better, and that drives up the cost of cables, preamps, on up the line to appreciate that difference.

I find this to be broadly true, not cables so much (I'm not a believer myself) but pricey cartridges can be a bit of a waste without appropriate bits further down the chain, particularly SUT and phono preamp.

I've just dusted off my flexible friend to pay for a Miyajima Madake, which should be here tomorrow. Having had assorted Miyajimas before (stereo - Waza, Shilabe, Kansui; mono Kotetu, Premium BE, Premium 78 and Zero - still own the last two of that list) I'm quite excited.

[Reffc]

From my own experience, a good MC cartridge has more advantages than previously stated. Lower inertia means usually better, more controlled HF damping and better HF response, but as Tom says, it demands high quality ancillaries. I've owned all sorts of expensive (and not so expensive) MM cartridges, and not one has bettered a good LOMC with matching ancillaries. Cheap? No. That's the main drawback, not the construction or the extra bits needed, or the high S/N demanded of partnering kit. All that is freely available by design from various designers/manufacturers but it comes at a cost. Whether that cost is worth it, is a very individual thing. For me, it is. Some of the finest sounds I've heard on hifi at any price have come from Tom's set-up with Miyajima carts, high quality tonearms, SUTs and phono stages.

You can get very good performance from a good MM, and that will be sufficient for most people I suspect, but as to which is "better", technically speaking, then imho, it's a good LOMC set up every time.

[Barry]

I'd hardly call myself a novice Barry.

My conclusion from several goes at it is they are probably fine for 60s pop and rock but a bit shit regardless of setup or 'luck' (in terms of getting a mythical 'good one') for the sort of subtle, finely shaded lieder, chamber music and renaissance stuff I mainly listen to.

What I should have said was that Deccas are not "fit and forget", as are most other cartridges. They don't require any more care with installation than you would give to any other cartridge, but in having a three-terminal connection to the preamp a certain amount of experimentation is needed regarding connection of the fourth wire, as well as to the load impedance.

I wouldn't necessarily say they are the best cartridge I have heard, and they do not replace the regular moving-coil designs I use (usually EMT or Ortofon ). But the presentation offered by Deccas is, IMO, so unique (and intriguing) I always have one set up on one of my TTs.

But as you say, you have given Deccas a good try on several occasions and found they are not for you. Can't say fairer than that.

[paulf-2007]

My current set up that I don't see changing. Denon DP80 about £600 excluding plinth, Stax UA-70 arm £650 and Shure Ultra 500 £500.

[take5]

Ive not read any of this thread ( too long)...................

but in the spirit of what does that matter, I'll join in anyway. here is my 2p worth.

the biggest audible improvements I have heard in my system have all been when I got high end MC cartridges.

my first was a Cadenza Black. huge jump up from my previous MC's inc... linn troika, Dynavector, Ortofon etc

next a Fidelity Research MC702. A step up from the Cadenza black, but not much. Then an audio Note Io. small step up again.

sadly, all now gone. My system sounds nothing like as good now.

Top class MC's....expensive ... yes. worth it.... yes

[Firebottle]

..next a Fidelity Research MC702.

Very nice when I heard one ....