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  1. #441
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 6,772
    I'm James.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    Really? I've certainly measured plenty of changes without being able to hear them.
    You need to clear the wax out your ears then.
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

  2. #442
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    It has nothing to do with 'feeling better about myself'.
    It absolutely *does* because you've just admitted it bugs you if you can't explain why something has an effect. Therefore, if you find a satisfactory explanation, then it automatically follows that you'll feel better, simply because your inquisitiveness has been satisfied!

    It has everything to do with wanting to understand how audio replay works so that knowledge can be put to practical effect, not just in creating better audio systems but in creating cheaper audio systems.
    I agree, and *if* proof that satisfies my judgement criteria [I take little of what's written in any text book as 'gospel'] becomes available, which explains why 'audiophile fuses' make a difference, then I'd welcome it with open arms.

    However, in the meantime I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, but simply relax and enjoy the upgrade, if one indeed is perceived. That's called behaving like a human being and having faith in one's senses. Yes, senses are fallible, and I acknowledge that, but neither is 'scientific proof' always infallible.

    That fact should always be considered before simply dismissing our ears and senses as reliable arbiters of the truth.

    If the fuse makes a difference/improvement beyond the placebo level then there certainly will be a satisfactory technical explanation for it. Antony TD already has his suspicions and has asked for some easily-provided information to take that further.
    I *absolutely* agree... BUT, finding a satisfactory technical explanation for it that qualifies as indisputable proof of its efficacy is quite another matter.

    Anthony simply has a theory (that I'd welcome be put forward and tested), which may or may not explain what's going on, but it's no more than that, and certainly without further rigorous investigation, would not qualify as indisputable proof.

    Therefore, we're back to the old 'how much do you trust your ears' thing again, as until someone nails what's happening conclusively and can demonstrate it beyond reasonable doubt, then that, together with various theories (and our ears) is all we have.

    Sorry, but I am not one of those people who is happy to sit back and accept that it is 'magic' or that it doesn't matter as long as 'Wish You Were Here' sounds good to me.

    If that attitude was common to everyone we would still be living in the Dark Ages and sacrificing chickens to the rain god.
    Nor me, but then neither am one to fret or get anxious about what I'm genuinely hearing, which can't currently be explained or proven.

    With hi-fi, there is always the danger of analysing the buggery out of things, to the detriment of one's enjoyment of the process, and hi-fi forums are full of such 'victims'. The fact is, owning a hi-fi system should be FUN, and an experience to be enjoyed, not simply acting as an (often frustrating) science experiment...

    And in terms of your last sentence, that statement should also be directed at those who believe that, unless something can be scientifically proven [with the limitations of the tools and knowledge available to us now], it automatically doesn't exist and/or has been imagined, because that attitude is just as bad and similarly guilty of holding back progress!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  3. #443
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 6,772
    I'm James.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Not entirely convinced by that particular aphorism, James.

    Everything real is quantifiable.
    Just thought it might apply the original post.
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

  4. #444
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    Really? I've certainly measured plenty of changes without being able to hear them.
    ...and I've (genuinely) heard plenty of things without being able to measure them (or rather without someone else being able to do so).

    I fundamentally believe, however, that *any* real effect CAN be measured - there is no doubt about that - but the problem is we might not necessarily use (or indeed currently have) the right tools for the job.

    Also, we may be looking in the wrong area in the first place, in order to find the right explanation for the existence of a specific effect, and thus reach the wrong conclusion. Think about that one, too...

    In any case, the person who invents a tool (or utilises the right one currently) and can demonstrably say 'there you are', here is indisputable proof that audiophile cables or fuses make a difference (or don't), will make a fortune.

    Until then, debates such as this will rage on, with nothing being 'indisputably proven' by either camp! And that, my friends, is the reality. Me? I'll continue believing what I perceive as real (with or without proof), and leave the 'fretters' to their fretting...

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  5. #445
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,786
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    It absolutely *does* because you've just admitted it bugs you if you can't explain why something has an effect. Therefore, if you find a satisfactory explanation, then it automatically follows that you'll feel better, simply because your inquisitiveness has been satisfied!



    I agree, and *if* proof that satisfies my judgement criteria becomes available, which explains why 'audiophile fuses' make a difference, then I'd welcome it with open arms. However, in the meantime I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, but simply relax and enjoy the upgrade, if one indeed is perceived.



    I *absolutely* agree... BUT, finding a satisfactory technical explanation for it that qualifies as indisputable proof, of its genuine effect or not, is quite another matter.

    Anthony simply has a theory (which I'd welcome be put forward), which may or may not explain what's going on, but it's no more than that, and certainly without further rigorous testing would not qualify as indisputable proof.

    Therefore, we're back to the old 'how much do you trust your ears' thing again, as until someone nails what's happening conclusively and can demonstrate it beyond reasonable doubt, that, together with various theories (and our ears) is all we have.



    Neither am I, but then neither am one to fret or get anxious about what I'm genuinely hearing, which can't currently be proven. With hi-fi, there is always the danger of analysing the buggery out of things, to the detriment of one's enjoyment of the process. Owning a hi-fi system should be FUN, and an experience to be enjoyed, not simply to act as an (often frustrating) science experiment...

    And in terms of your last sentence, that statement should also be directed at those who believe that, unless something can be scientifically proven [with the limitations of tools and knowledge available to us now], it doesn't exist and/or has been imagined, because that attitude is just as bad and similarly guilty of holding back progress.

    Marco.
    Not fretting, not losing sleep, and your last paragraph I completely agree with but that is not the situation here.

    The situation here is that someone who's opinion I trust says that these fuses make a difference. That means I will consider it worthwhile enough to suspend my scepticism enough to give it a try myself. If I also am happy that I am hearing a difference that is comfortably beyond placebo then I do not think it unreasonable to start asking questions as to why, since this does not conform to the standard playbook.

    Maybe we will not find the answer right away, but there will be an answer. If we find it then we know how the process works. it may be possible to replicate it without paying silly money for these fuses. It might explain a lot of things previously dismissed as placebo, imagination and expectation bias.

    We already have issues in this hobby with people drawing the wrong conclusions and making wrong assumptions which has got so bad the manufacturers are now pandering to it instead of devoting resources to actually making better kit, they are marketing bullshit because bullshit sells to the uneducated punter.

    We need to get back to the days of the proper enthusiast who at least knew the basics of how his kit turned electrical impulses into sound and was less inclined to be mesmerised by marketing rhetoric and if presented with a bit of kit that sounded good was immediately inclined to ask 'how have they done that, then?'
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  6. #446
    RothwellAudio Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    You need to clear the wax out your ears then.
    Well, that's a possibilty I suppose. Just to clarify, are you saying that anything I've been able to measure I should also be able to hear? Even the stuff at 100kHz? Do you expect other people to hear things at 100kHz too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    ...and I've (genuinely) heard plenty of things without being able to measure them (or rather without someone else being able to do so).
    This seems a lot more reasonable to me. It's quite easy to measure things at 100 kHz which people can't hear. It's difficult to measure things at low levels which people can hear - or at least I find it difficult to measure them.

  7. #447
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    I'm in full agreement, Martin, with all that you've written. However, in terms of this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    We need to get back to the days of the proper enthusiast who at least knew the basics of how his kit turned electrical impulses into sound and was less inclined to be mesmerised by marketing rhetoric and if presented with a bit of kit that sounded good was immediately inclined to ask 'how have they done that, then?'
    Absolutely... As long as said "proper enthusiast" doesn't become mesmerised either (or obsessed) with having to *prove* or explain everything he hears before he believes it, otherwise he's in for a world of disappointment, because proof won't always be there when it's needed.

    Whilst all that you've said is true, there comes a point too, when a "proper enthusiast" (not necessarily an equipment builder or designer) throws the text books, measurements and theories out of the window, and trusts the ears and instincts he was born with - and most importantly of all doesn't forget what this hobby is about, first and foremost: the enjoyment of music.

    It's all too easy sometimes to lose sight of what really matters!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  8. #448
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

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    I'm Grant.

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    Indeed. Spotify through my headphones isnt hi fidelity as such but its damn enjoyable and thats more important than wondering about this, that or the next thing.
    Regards,
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  9. #449
    Join Date: Jan 2013

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    I'm James.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    Well, that's a possibilty I suppose. Just to clarify, are you saying that anything I've been able to measure I should also be able to hear? Even the stuff at 100kHz? Do you expect other people to hear things at 100kHz too?


    This seems a lot more reasonable to me. It's quite easy to measure things at 100 kHz which people can't hear. It's difficult to measure things at low levels which people can hear - or at least I find it difficult to measure them.
    You are probably correct Andrew. Science may yet prove that we are still sensitive to sound even though we think we can't actually consciously hear it. Very high or low frequencies may actually have an influence on how we hear things in the range we perceive as being audible.
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

  10. #450
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by struth View Post
    Indeed. Spotify through my headphones isnt hi fidelity as such but its damn enjoyable and thats more important than wondering about this, that or the next thing.
    Ultimately, the end goal for any enthusiast and music lover should be about achieving enjoyment from listening to their favourite music, not using his or her system as their pet science project.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


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