The Law Of Diminishing Returns

[rigger67]

Hi-fi has always struck me as a good example of the law.

Go from spending £300 on a basic system to £3000 on something more substantial and the results can be astounding, but anything after that .. well, I'd argue you get less bang for your bucks and the increases will be marginal.

That thread about milestone equipment in the history of hi-fi made my eyes water with the prices of some of the gear being suggested.

I simply can't justify spending thousands of pounds on, say, Mark Levinson gear or a few hundred on a PSU for this or a little black box for that.


I love this forum and find the whole subject fascinating, but I'm also constantly staggered reading some of the comments.
Maybe it's all down to disposable income : I don't have that much so I'm careful with what I do spend. My next move will probably be to try a passive pre-amp to replace my NAD. It'll probably be the Tisbury. It'll mean I'll need a phono stage (I already have a DAC) so I'll probably go for a Project, but I may push it to a Graham Slee if I can find one reasonably priced.
After that, I doubt I'll do anything more other than to eventually get a more substantial cart to replace the P77 I'm using now.


I've got a friend who has a full-on Naim system based around an LP12.
He's got loads of their gear and he fully accepts his house could do with a lick of paint and he drives around in a rust bucket, but that's because he values his music more than his neighbours' opinions.

I respect that

Would I be right in thinking everyone on here is the same or are you all just filthy rich ?

[struth]

Nope. I filthy poor and my hifi is budget by most folks standards. In fact most on here are better off than me, hell it wouldnt be difficult. I dont think the average system here is all that expensive, although many do have expensive systems. I dont think its at the expense of their house or car though.
Average age is around 50, so most now have more disposable income due to mortgages, kids etc out of way, and most will have decent jobs.

[Arkless Electronics]

At the risk of stating he bloody obvious...I guess it's the nature of the beast.. It is not that expensive to get to a level of very good quality, lets say 80% of "as good as it gets at any price". If you want to go higher the cost of the parts and labour goes through the roof for fairly good reasons. If you want speakers with genuinely extended bass and a purer sound through the range you are then talking big expensive woofers in big cabinets that have to be properly braced, better mid and HF drivers, crossovers in which 20p electrolytics are replaced with a cap of the same value but polypropylene and £8 each etc etc. Also expensive gear sells only in fairly small quantities and so parts are bought in small quantities, missing out on bulk buy savings, and a years profits has to be made on say 100 units rather than on 10,000 units..

[bumpy]

If you really want to bring tears to your eyes then have a browse through this Site
https://www.facebook.com/odechelette...WSFEED&fref=nf

[danilo]

Was rabbiting on in that vein myself Recently.
I often peruse Youtube videos of Live performances, as Music testers. The ones that impressed ,on my Desktop, I often buy the Cd(s)
Some are even better than the Youtube show, others are simply Piss poor recordings.. (yes Genuine ones) Including a Paco de Lucia one.. grr.
Dead flat sounds in truth... when played thru my Stereo system.
Recording qualities Well masked by Youtube quality? reproductions.

Same reason that I will not own a MC cart. As then my meager LP collection would be reduced to a dozen or two 'enjoyable' Lp's.
A fellow of years long association with selling/installing mega buck AV setups.
Claims that a prosaic NAD system is of Better sound quality than 80% of available gear.
Perennially suggesting that as a V good plateau that one can live on.. happily.
Few bragging rights there tho.

[rigger67]

If you really want to bring tears to your eyes then have a browse through this Site
https://www.facebook.com/odechelette...WSFEED&fref=nf

Yeah, there's a few groups like this one, aren't there ?

To be honest, I'll drool over the pictures as I love design in every form - especially industrial - but that's all it is : audio pornography.

[Sherwood]

As an economist I agree that the law of diminishing marginal returns sets in very quickly. Indeed, the situation mirrors the logarithmic relationship between amplifier output power and sound output levels. A doubling of output power produces only a modest increase in sound levels.

Recent developments have made the expenditure:returns arithmetic somewhat interesting. Whereas 30 years ago one had to spend a lot for a good vinyl front end, it is now possible to get a good digital front end for a modest amount. A raspberry pi based system can sound excellent for little outlay. However, good amplification and speakers are still relatively costly. I agree that a good system can be put together for around three grand (assuming around 1200 each for a good amp and speakers). I would suggest that cost-effective improvements can still be achieved up to double this outlay (i.e. five to six grand) but that after that the returns fall off very sharply.

Of course, I am completely side-stepping the challenge of how to objectively measure sound quality!

I am also totally shocked by the costs of some "audiophile" components and find it incredible that there is a sufficiently large market to make these products viable. I would be very interested to know how others fare on the software to hardware spend ratio (that is the ratio between the amount spent on music and the amount spent on hardware). I am deeply suspicious of anyone for whom the ratio is less than one but can see that an obscenely expensive hifi system would require a huge music collection to balance the numbers. Perhaps some non-linear transformation could be used.

Geoff

[rigger67]

As an economist I agree that the law of diminishing marginal returns sets in very quickly. Indeed, the situation mirrors the logarithmic relationship between amplifier output power and sound output levels. A doubling of output power produces only a modest increase in sound levels.

Recent developments have made the expenditure:returns arithmetic somewhat interesting. Whereas 30 years ago one had to spend a lot for a good vinyl front end, it is now possible to get a good digital front end for a modest amount. A raspberry pi based system can sound excellent for little outlay. However, good amplification and speakers are still relatively costly. I agree that a good system can be put together for around three grand (assuming around 1200 each for a good amp and speakers). I would suggest that cost-effective improvements can still be achieved up to double this outlay (i.e. five to six grand) but that after that the returns fall off very sharply.

Of course, I am completely side-stepping the challenge of how to objectively measure sound quality!

I am also totally shocked by the costs of some "audiophile" components and find it incredible that there is a sufficiently large market to make these products viable. I would be very interested to know how others fare on the software to hardware spend ratio (that is the ratio between the amount spent on music and the amount spent on hardware). I am deeply suspicious of anyone for whom the ratio is less than one but can see that an obscenely expensive hifi system would require a huge music collection to balance the numbers. Perhaps some non-linear transformation could be used.

Geoff

Interesting post, Geoff.

Not sure I understand what "non-linear transformation" means in this instance though - isn't that a maths term, rather than an economics one ?

[Covenant]

I think that if I was filthy rich then hi-fi (as opposed to music) would be less interesting. It is precisely because you can get 80% of a decent system with a small outlay that makes it worth pursuing.

[Barry]

Assuming a figure of £10 for each item of 'software' (i.e. an LP or CD), then I just about meet your criterion of an equal split in expenditure between hardware and software.