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Thread: Any Technics SL-1200GAE Owners here?

  1. #21
    Join Date: Jun 2014

    Location: New York

    Posts: 46
    I'm A.

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    We need to establish if there is a difference in the first place. I'm willing to bet, based on past experience, that many of these so-called subjective improvements will disappear in blind testing. However, in the unlikely event that some of these differences are shown to be real then, of course, personal preferences will be significant as you point out. Over on PFM (I trust it is OK to mention other fora) there is a thread titled Measuring what sounds good. Have a look at my posts there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Fair enough but then a blind test won't be any use either, no matter how scientific, unless you are the participent. I'm as careful with my audiophile dollars as anyone but sometimes you just have to take an (educated) punt.

  2. #22
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,785
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by al2002 View Post
    We need to establish if there is a difference in the first place. I'm willing to bet, based on past experience, that many of these so-called subjective improvements will disappear in blind testing. However, in the unlikely event that some of these differences are shown to be real then, of course, personal preferences will be significant as you point out. Over on PFM (I trust it is OK to mention other fora) there is a thread titled Measuring what sounds good. Have a look at my posts there.
    Yes I have read the thread and re-watched the lecture. Toole is a good speaker and makes his points clearly and without waffling. But with regard to blind testing I would argue that it is unnecessary providing the subjects are aware of their potential bias and take it into account. I'd also make the point that just because you found little difference between some very similar amplifiers when blind-testing it doesn't automatically follow that you will achieve the same null results with other components, or indeed with amplifiers that have greater differences in design topology and build quality.

    The thing with reproducing recorded sound is that small differences do matter, maybe not when listening to 30 second excerpts in a blind test, but over a period of many hours of listening for pleasure. Subtleties that may be missed in the test could actually be make or break for whether we can live with that sound for recreational listening, or whether we will grow dissatisfied with it quite quickly.

    I'm not dismissing blind testing as it is a useful tool and also as a means to demonstrate that unconscious bias exists, but it is by no means some ultimate and flawless arbiter.

    I've heard enough modded Technics turntables to accept that at least some of the modifications do make a significant improvement to the quality of the sound produced. Quantifying them would require more dedicated back to back comparisons with the stock deck, using the same cartridge. I agree it is possible that some of them do not make a significant improvement*. To say 'many' or to put money on it is, I would suggest, being a little over-confident.

    * By significant improvement I mean one which is considered worthwhile for the cost, not a 'night and day' improvement. I'd suggest that the quality of the phono stage and cartridge would over-ride any of the possible mods, and that it is here that the money should be spent first, assuming the budget has a limit.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  3. #23
    Join Date: Jun 2014

    Location: New York

    Posts: 46
    I'm A.

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    I'm afraid that we human beings are what we are, and bias in a sighted test is impossible to ignore or eliminate. As I have written elsewhere a sighted test is like sitting for an exam with the answer sheet in full view.

    There is no restriction on listening time in a blind test. It is likely that many, if not all, of the 'subtleties' detected in sighted tests are due to visual cues and biases. IME, we audiophiles are prone to listening with our eyes.

    Note that I am not asserting all amps sound alike or anything like that. What I am saying is that before we launch into a long discussion of why item A sounds better than B, we should ascertain definitively that this is indeed the case. I do not see a non-blind solution for this.

    My night and day comment was related to the opinions held in certain high end circles where price and brand name are considered to indicators of sonic quality. I'll never forget the time a good friend showed up with a Krell integrated amp and predicted that it would blow away my modestly priced Tandberg integrated. Needless to say, he was unable to tell them apart under blind conditions. Speakers were quad 63s.

  4. #24
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Don't forget too that having FUN is a crucial part of both achieving system satisfaction and, most importantly, musical enjoyment from our audio hobby - thus it is *essential* we're doing that (and feeling relaxed) when assessing equipment and making important choices, as that way we perform and behave more faithfully as humans... I also dislike any form of rigid dogma.

    In that respect, having carried out many such tests, blind-testing audio equipment, in an appropriate controlled environment, is about as much fun or relaxing for most people as sticking a rusty pin up your Jap's eye! Now, when that's the case for most of us (excluding the white coat-wearing lab geeks), how can the results obtained be anything other than flawed?

    That's why BOTH blind and sighted testing *is* fundamentally flawed, but simply in different ways. Therefore, there is no universal 'one true path' for assessing the sound/personal suitability of audio equipment: simply choose the method that works best for YOU, and if that involves keeping your peepers wide-open, then so be it!



    Marco.

    P.S What does the 'A' stand for? I presume Al?
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  5. #25
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    I'm not dismissing blind testing as it is a useful tool and also as a means to demonstrate that unconscious bias exists, but it is by no means some ultimate and flawless arbiter.
    Precisely; as I've just highlighted

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  6. #26
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Fair enough but then a blind test won't be any use either, no matter how scientific, unless you are the participent. I'm as careful with my audiophile dollars as anyone but sometimes you just have to take an (educated) punt.
    Indeed. Gut instincts, judiciously-derived through experience, can be huge assets when building a hi-fi system. It's how 90% of my system was built - and you've heard the results!

    Contrary to what 'measurists' think, good/correct decisions can be arrived at in this hobby, in the absence of readouts on test equipment

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  7. #27
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,785
    I'm Martin.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by al2002 View Post
    Note that I am not asserting all amps sound alike or anything like that. What I am saying is that before we launch into a long discussion of why item A sounds better than B, we should ascertain definitively that this is indeed the case. I do not see a non-blind solution for this.

    My night and day comment was related to the opinions held in certain high end circles where price and brand name are considered to indicators of sonic quality. I'll never forget the time a good friend showed up with a Krell integrated amp and predicted that it would blow away my modestly priced Tandberg integrated. Needless to say, he was unable to tell them apart under blind conditions. Speakers were quad 63s.
    You can't really use a blind test to work out which is 'better' since that is totally subjective. The purpose of a blind test is to determine if there is a difference perceived between two or more items that is not due to unconcious bias.

    To my mind if the difference is so small that it cannot be picked up on a blind test then it probably isn't worth worrying about in any case. If differences are obvious then you don't need the blind test.

    I'm sort of between the two camps as I think you can tell quite a lot about what something will sound like from the appropriate measurements, if you have them, and if you have experience of hearing similarly designed/measuring kit in the past.

    In your example of the Krell/Tandberg comparison I don't think any experienced enthusiast would be surprised that there was little/no difference between them. I wouldn't need a blind test to demonstrate that, although your friend obviously did

    Of course any amplifier comparison relies on both amps being able to drive the given speakers at 100%. I'd expect the Krell to do better with a really difficult load.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  8. #28
    Join Date: Aug 2016

    Location: Norway

    Posts: 15
    I'm Ole.

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    I'm was lucky to get my hands on a GAE, and what an experience. I never thought I ever bring a DD into my house, but have always loved the pace an attack of a DD. But....
    My Wilson Benesch Circle is not missed at all. All the DD virtues, but with a smoothness and refinement of a good belt drive.

    The G model is now on sale, and here in Norway the G is about £300 more expensive that the GAE. Is it the same in England? I think the anticipation was that the G was going to be considerably cheaper than the GAE
    Hegel H160 - KEF R500 - Musical Fidelity VYNL - Technics SL 1200GAE - Ortofon Cadenza Blue - Little Dot CD transport - Chord/Nordos
    The most important cable characteristic for sound is length. If it's too short, it won't reach to the speakers.

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