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Thread: Owston valve amp fest

  1. #11
    Join Date: Mar 2008

    Location: Halifax, UK

    Posts: 1,399
    I'm Nick.

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    I think it would be good to see what happens. If the D.I.Y cables are as good or even better than the Transparents then it's a compliment to those who made them.
    Personally I don't think its a case of the DIY stuff being "better", but the difference that can be made by changing a cap (let alone a valve, transformer or circuit design) far outshadows that of a cable (IMHO), so its not something that gets thought about much.

  2. #12
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Yes I totally agree. Component upgrades will always have more of a fundamental and significant impact. But it's also vital not to 'hobble' the signal being transferred from box to box, and to the speakers, otherwise the sonic effect of the cap, valve, or whatever, will be diluted

    It seems a bit of a shame to effect a valuable component upgrade only for the improved signal to be strangled further down the chain. I'm not saying that's necessarily what's happening with D.I.Y cables but it would be interesting to hear what difference, if any, the Transparents made to the systems demonstrated.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  3. #13
    Join Date: Apr 2008

    Posts: 9

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    Yeah, we met briefly, I'm Scott -nice to meet you. Unfortunately, I couldn't stay for more than a few minutes of the DAC comparisons. Family taxi duties I'm afraid.

    What Nick observes above, especially the 'it never occured to me' part is basically what I was pointing out. Not an especially novel view, just that wire doesn't really tend to be a factor in the 'important things' list of most of the people at the Owston meet. It's probably a different mentality because the majority of us are DIYers.

    Look at it this way, in very generalised terms. Many (most?) commercial hifi buyers / listeners have a bit of a problem: once they have their gear, they're stuck with it, unless they can afford to sell it on & buy something 'better' (whatever that means). Typically, they don't know all that much about the internals of whatever the component in question happens to be, and if they did, they usually wouldn't know what to do to adjust things to their requirements. So, even if warranty issues didn't arise, they can't rip the thing open, and affect changes. As such, they have to look to other things, such as wire, to try to tailor the system to their needs. Fair enough? A DIYer of the type who's progressed so far as to designing their own speakers, amps etc., OTOH, despite often being looked down upon, actually has certain advantages: they usually know more about the technical side of the equipment (or, if it's something they don't specialise in, they'll know someone else who does) and can either build something specifically tailored to their requirements, or make some adjustments to achieve that end. Although not an invariable rule, they rarely worry about things like wire, because they don't actually need to -major changes can be achieved via other means, and the comparatively subtle affects (if any in their particular system) of wire are either swamped, or completely negated from the off. It's basically two completely different approaches & mindsets.

    Agreed about not hobbling the signal, & you certainly need to make sure your interconnects are fit for the purpose of transfering the signal from one component to another. Fortunately, it's not a very demanding job electrically, or we'd all be in trouble, commercial & DIYers alike. ;^)
    Last edited by Mammoth; 21-04-2008 at 14:26.

  4. #14
    Join Date: Mar 2008

    Location: Galashiels

    Posts: 13,669
    I'm inthescottishmafia.

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    Hi All,
    It was good to meet you Marco,glad you enjoyed the meet.I would say your DAC was one of the star performers,but then it should be given what you've spent on it! What did you think of some of the DIY efforts? I reckon some ran yours extremely close,not bad when you consider that most cost far less than a tenth of the price of yours! Regarding the cables,it just doesn't occur to us to try different ones,we just use what is there.After all,the majority of listening was carried out with my cheapo Gotham Swiss speaker cables- bought new off fleabay for 30 quid.Nick and Scott were right in what they said,and I would also add that a meet such as that is no place for really critical listening,what with a large amount of people milling around and conversations going on in the background,so it would be difficult to pick out the very subtle changes cables make.
    It would be good if you brought your speakers next time,to give us a good idea of what good (and expensive!) commercial speakers are capable of.
    So what did you think of the amps you heard? Any stand out for you?

    BTW,I picked up your Alabama 3 cd.PM me and I'll post it back to you.I've been giving it a few spins.It's growing on me!

    Regards,Ali

  5. #15
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Hi Scott and Ali,

    I'll get back to you tomorrow. In the meantime here are some links to video shots of the Owston meeting:

    http://www.zippyvideos.com/893186301...owston_2008_1/

    http://www.zippyvideos.com/945417089...owston_2008_2/

    I'm in there somewhere, but it's only very briefly. A 'special prize' goes to anyone who identifies me correctly

    Obviously people who know me already need not apply!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  6. #16
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: Wirral, UK.

    Posts: 674
    I'm fightingmywayoutofawetecho.

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    Got it....Your the one with the long white hair and beard!

    I hope the prize is extra Shhpesh....

  7. #17
    Join Date: Mar 2008

    Location: Halifax, UK

    Posts: 1,399
    I'm Nick.

    Default

    Now, you should know better Ian :-)

  8. #18
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Oh indeed so, Belinda. I'm off to get Billy to trim me white wig

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  9. #19
    Join Date: Apr 2008

    Location: Bristol, UK

    Posts: 441
    I'm Greg.

    Default

    Hi Marco,

    Good to meet you on Saturday. You were so intent on listening you didn't move away from the sound stage so we had little time to converse socially and consequently I never bought you that drink I'd promised you elsewhere.

    Some stuff to get your head around following on from what you've experienced.

    1. Your DAC was well received because it has 1541A Crown chips which in the DIY world are well regarded and now a rare aquisition. Many of us would like to own this chip for our own applications.

    2. Your obsession with cable and interconnects is a classic example of how you have been sucked in by the marketing within the industry. Hook up/interconnect wires are where the most money is made. Nearly all of it is a total marketing con and You need to get your head around that deception. That is why at Owston you witnessed no individual getting worried about what wire was used (apart from you and then you got concerned about directionality which for us was bollocks). We've all worked out what works. The variety is unimportant. Cables used at our meets are top performers whatever the recipe and be sure they cost about three and sixpence to make. Sign up to the conclusion. What the individual components in a system does is the base line. Cables are a ancillary addition but they do nothing to improve sound if your basic units are not right. I was cruel to you at the time stating that the cost of build of my amp was less than you paid for a couple of lengths of wire, however think this through. I'm not knocking you personally but rather suggesting that you've been conned by the industry marketing as I once also was. Now I see the light and I'd very much like you to realise what I have.

    3. Better sounds (assuming that is what you are after) can be had at a fraction of commercial prices, you can tune to meet your own specific and environmental listening needs and without doubt produce the ultimate listening system within your own home. On Saturday you heard some systems not in the best listening environment however sounding very good. If you replicated that in your home you would be gobsmacked. You'd be further gobsmacked when realising the cost was peanuts compared with the commercial con prices.

    4. I understand this forum is well represented by commercial Hi-Fi companies. I'm probably being a bit of a loose cannon in the circumstance but without doubt, most of the companies are conning the average hi-fi punter. To overcome that, a little bit of research into DIY will bring dividends and the serious will not be put off from the learning curve. I was a total novice but dipped my toe in. I've learnt alot but have very much more to learn. Regardless, I've simplistically learnt enough to stay safe and build very seriously authentically sounding kit at the fraction of the over the counter price. Way to go if you have the intuition.

    Best wishes,

    Greg
    Last edited by Cotlake; 21-04-2008 at 23:17.

  10. #20
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Posts: 424

    Default

    Well said Greg, you should stay around.

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