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Thread: MM Cartridge less clinical sounding than a 2m black?

  1. #31
    Join Date: Apr 2016

    Location: souf east for work

    Posts: 955
    I'm paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob4333 View Post
    Ben, the Nag MP 500 is a very, very accomplished cartridge. My experience of it was of a very forward sounding cart and a full on, party animal. Great tracker, good deep bass, plenty of sparkle that grabbed me from the start and made me think I'd finally found the cartridge I was going to live with.

    But ultimately another "careful what you wish for" moment. It was just too much for the long run and eventually bought by another member on here (jamie123, IIRC). It'd be interesting to know what others think.

    If you want a cart to liven up your system then this could be it. If your system already gives you plenty of drive and energy then the 500 may just push it over the edge. But it's all about synergy.

    I've tried quite a few cart's over the years, some running into the four figure cost bracket. And there's one I keep coming back to - the SAE 1000LT. A high output MC (2.5mV) that needs to be used with the MM input side of a phono.

    No longer made but Thakker seem to keep finding them from somewhere. https://www.thakker.eu/en/pickup/sae...tridge/a-5171/

    Cost new at just over 300 quid is a bit more than you want to pay but they do come up used from time to time.
    I have an SAE 1000LT in my office set up. It was my main cart for some time until I tried some low output mc's. Now gone back to mm and moving iron. The SAE is a very good cart, made by Coral.
    Sony STR 6055 Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 Zu omen

    Office system, DIY CSS fullrange speakers with aurum cantus G2 ribbons Najda dsp as dac Akai AM-U02 Jvc QL-A51 direct drive turntable
    SAE1000LT leema sub. JVC Z4S cart is in the house

    Garage system another Sony receiver, cassette deck and full range drivers in free air


    System components are subject to change without warning and at the discretion of the owner.

  2. #32
    Join Date: Apr 2011

    Location: London

    Posts: 3,102
    I'm Robert.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulf-2007 View Post
    I have an SAE 1000LT in my office set up. It was my main cart for some time until I tried some low output mc's. Now gone back to mm and moving iron. The SAE is a very good cart, made by Coral.
    Hi Paul, Was / Is there something about mc's you found missing that you get or like with mm's and mi's ?
    My System:
    Amplification - Sansui AU-alpha 707 DR
    Turntable - Modified Technics SL1210 MK5G
    Mike New precision bearing, bearing base plate, ETP Platter
    Micro Seiki MA-202 tonearm, rewired, hybrid ceramic bearings
    Ortofon Cadenza Black moving coil cartridge
    Yannis Tome 423.5 Silver-Litz tonearm cable with KLEI Pure Silver Harmony plugs
    Ebony armboard
    Audio Technica MS-8 Magnesium headshell, Ortofon pure silver headshell leads
    Isonoe Isolation Feet
    Paul Hynes SR7EHD PSU (plus regulator modules), DCSXL pure-silver DC lead with Jaegar low impedance connector
    CDP - Pioneer PD-91
    Speakers - Spendor D7
    QED Silver Spiral speaker cable, Airlock plugs - bare wire amp end.
    Mains - Ultra Pure silver plated un-switched socket, Missing link EPS 500 silver plated plugs with Hi-Fi Tuning gold plated silver ceramic 13 amp fuses

  3. #33
    Join Date: Oct 2015

    Location: Durham

    Posts: 389
    I'm Andy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSJR View Post
    You lot certainly like your 'thumpers,' don't you

    Firstly, what on earth has been 'modified' in the Tron phono stage? Graham Tricker is a damned good valve product designer and the only criticism I could ever make is that his products are priced out of the UK market to sell in the far eastern markets where status is conferred by price tag, this depriving many of the pleasure of using said products. I'd seriously try something un-modified to confirm your feelings before wholesale cartridge changes. Taking the arm height down a tad may just be enough to subtly adjust the balance, or maybe even asking Graham what valves he suggests to do a similar thing?

    I have a M20FL Super/Cap210 and it ain't arf ripe compared to the more delicate M20E Super which uses the same body. I sold many P77's too and have two here with damaged cantilevers, one with an Mg outer body, but I can't play them. Definitely not a particularly clear sound by today's standards and with an hf suckout which is quite audible, but I believe ESCo still make original styli for them.

    Records made 'commercially' don't always have much bass weight cut into them as it takes up too much 'land' on the vinyl shortening playing time, the upper mids emphasised quite often in an attempt to get over older cartridge designs dulling it all. I'd try a different phono stage just to make sure though.
    What's a "thumper"?

    The Firebottle modded Tron has its own thread if you'd like to know more:

    http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...irebottle+tron

    Personally, I can't see why anybody's products should be exempt from modding. People hear differently and designers bring different experiences and thinking to the table. Surely variety is good and mods can drive improvements. Look at Teddy Pardo and others influencing Naim PSU's. Lots more examples too, but nothing to do with cartridges, so I'll say no more here

  4. #34
    Join Date: Apr 2016

    Location: souf east for work

    Posts: 955
    I'm paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieGong View Post
    Hi Paul, Was / Is there something about mc's you found missing that you get or like with mm's and mi's ?
    Find them a bit laid back. Some seem to like that presentation, people I know with mega bucks set ups seem to like it that way, maybe it's more accurate but I don't think so. Koetsu', AN Io gold etc, meh.
    I found a Shure Ultra 500 in a Martin Bastin body with jico says stylus that gives me what I want without all the problems of step up and phono stage matching, it's an expensive mine field. I am now enjoying a Decca C4E that is about as far away from a low output MC as I can get. Of course the differences are very small in reality and I'm just enjoying music and not listening for something unobtanium.
    Sony STR 6055 Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 Zu omen

    Office system, DIY CSS fullrange speakers with aurum cantus G2 ribbons Najda dsp as dac Akai AM-U02 Jvc QL-A51 direct drive turntable
    SAE1000LT leema sub. JVC Z4S cart is in the house

    Garage system another Sony receiver, cassette deck and full range drivers in free air


    System components are subject to change without warning and at the discretion of the owner.

  5. #35
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: A Strangely Isolated Place in Suffolk with far away trains passing by...

    Posts: 14,447
    I'm David.

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    To me, a thumper cartridge is one where the lower mids downwards have a full-on 'thumping' quality which isn't particularly tuneful or light-footed. Terrible description, but to me different from a more 'organic' bass presentation which the ear can find attractive. I love the Ortofon M20E Super, which is a 1g tracker with great musicality and delicacy, but find the FL stylus a bit harder going, the bass thickening a bit into a bit of a 'thump.' Incidentally, the descended 2M Bronze doesn't seem to do this on the small amount of listening I've given it.

    Actually, a 2M Bronze stylus might possible put a little more 'funk' in the sound rather than colouring it darker, if you see what I mean.

    P.S. Modding for more 'detail' often brings up listener fatigue or upsets the natural musical balance. I haven't heard the 'cheaper' Tron, but loved the 'Seven' just as it is and have been intermittently acquainted with Graham Tricker for many years... Of course, the hugely supplied two-box stage I have here has all the bass power and musicality you'd need from bottom to top and without details being etched in a 'HiFi' sense.
    Tear down these walls; Cut the ties that held me
    Crying out at the top of my voice; Tell me now if you can hear me

  6. #36
    Join Date: Apr 2016

    Location: souf east for work

    Posts: 955
    I'm paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ellensdad View Post
    Three vintage options that fit your description:

    JVC Z1 w/ Jico SAS - The SAS brings out the absolute best of this cartridge. It combines speed and detail with a weight and richness that I just love. Oh, and the dynamics are startling. A body can usually be had for about $50.

    A&R P77 w/ Jico SAS - Great bass, sweet & weighty mids, nice highs. Very musical cartridge.

    Ortofon M20FL - Organic, organic, organic. Needs around 400pF to be at its best but its best is quite good.

    Search Audiogon Forums for these cartridges for lots of info and much better descriptions than I've given here.
    Ok this post is recent history but only just seen it. I have a Jvc Z1s and Victor Z4s, could be the other way round but they are one and the same. I think the Z1s was on a turntable I bought and the Z4s was a freebie with my Stax arm. Both sound reasonable but wasn't aware of a jico stylus for them and cannot find one now.
    Sony STR 6055 Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 Zu omen

    Office system, DIY CSS fullrange speakers with aurum cantus G2 ribbons Najda dsp as dac Akai AM-U02 Jvc QL-A51 direct drive turntable
    SAE1000LT leema sub. JVC Z4S cart is in the house

    Garage system another Sony receiver, cassette deck and full range drivers in free air


    System components are subject to change without warning and at the discretion of the owner.

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