This is hard work.

[anthonyTD]

hi all,
you will have probably seen my earlier post in this thread where i tried to give some aditional info for steve to put to those on that forum who seem to be delibarately bating him and dave price, but as you guys have pointed out, whats the point, thats the whole reason you will not find me on any other forum apart from here, i have been aware of the problems such characters cause since all the main forums started, and thats the reason i have stayed away from such places, this is the only forum[ as far as i know] that you can have a healthy debate and put all sides of an argument where it dosent turn personal! i realy despair sometimes when i read this rubbish...
regards,anthony,TD...

[Ali Tait]

Hi Anthony,
You will find the same good attitudes on WD and Audio-Talk also.Both are very friendly places.As for the rest,it's not worth wasting the time,it's only words on a screen after all,and if some people are so blinkered as to refuse to listen for themselves,that's up to them.We know what sounds best!

[DSJR]

I've only read the first page and already lost the will to live... The whole argument against transistors is decades old, more modern devices appear to answer these criticisms and Class B amps can now be made with SIMPLE circuits, inaudible distortion at ANY harmonic (well below -80db) and an ability to drive almost anything with no instability (low output impedance giving high damping factor), as they're so much more consistant. Indeed, the only amps that get criticised for crossover distortion and grainy, grey qualities tend to be CB and Olive Naims of old, their owners thinking they're new and bang up-to-date in the components and circuit used.

I'm not saying I'm anti-valve, far from it, but to get as transparent as possible sound from valves does involve considerable expense in terms of output transformers etc and sad to say, the Output-Transformer-Less Croft amp I had used to blow fuses if asked to deliver more than a small amount of current - it sounded great though - when it worked..........

Some audio people are SO narrow minded. Embrace it ALL I say, and have some fun doing it!

[Marco]

Guys,

Let's not lower ourselves to their (mainly McPeake's) gutter level. Whilst I understand why Steve started this thread, we must remember that as part of our ethos we do openly not slag off other forums, so let's rise above their sneering cynicism, clueless and horrendously confrontational attitude, and rubbishing of things that they know little about. We're much better than that!

You've summed it up, Steve:

I know the signs when James begins to lose his argument. He will probably post up an inane pic or video shortly and/or ask some personal question. He is here as a troll to wind people up and say stuff he would not dare to anyone's face.

I'm afraid that when people simply wish to cause aggravation and annoyance it's completely pointless attempting to engage them in any form of constructive debate, therefore Steve, I'd advise that you pull out of the thread now and let it die a natural death, which it surely would have done had David Price, Guy Sergeant and you not stimulated the discussion there. 'Pearls to swine', indeed

On a happier note, I attended the Owston fest yesterday and heard some of the best sounds ever at an event such as this - the standard really was exceptional this time. It's obvious that the guys there continually strive for excellence and this is reflected by the fact that every time I hear their gear it gets better and better, so kudos and respect to them for achieving that

Dave also hits the nail on the head:

Some audio people are SO narrow minded. Embrace it ALL I say, and have some fun doing it!

Events such as Owston, where genuinely knowledgeable and experienced enthusiasts meet to share their skill and devotion to the cause should be what we're concentrating on; things that actually matter, not the inane nonsense being written on ZG!

As an aside, I heard my "credit crunch special DJ deck" () go head-to-head again with some very tasty Garrards, SP10s and PL-71s, and it was most certainly not disgraced, as neither was my Croft (since it's been further modified) - far from it!

More on that later on the Owston fest thread...

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

Marco, we are not slagging off ZG. We have issues with a couple of its contributors that's all. I joined that place at the very beginning back in 2003 as well as its predecessor Groovehandle so I do hold a certain affinity for it. Before James was exiled there from PFM, his mainstay until then, ZG was ok. It leaned a bit towards objectivism more than I like but there is both room and need for diversity between forums.

With tighter and more focussed moderation they could attract more in the way of scientifically knowledgeable contributors in relevant fields.

My criticism is ever constructive and I do not regard forums as being in competition with each other where diversity between them is properly nurtured.

[DSJR]

The funny thing (quick comment only) was that when I first discovered audio forums (PFM), I was called a troll by that now banned member, despite having once owned similar speakers and even sticking up for them..

Some people (including a cousin-in-law) seem to want to put their self-imagined intellectual superiority forward at every opportunity, intellectualising all over emotional and heart-made decisions and totally missing the point in the process. This cousin-in-law is a competent musician, yet his compositions get bogged down in the name of "prog" key and tempo changes which jarr because there's no "soul" in it. Had he just "gone with" the vibe his introductions started with, the result would be a great musical journey.


Hope you guys understand what I'm clumsily trying to put across. I'm happy to be called to rights if I've done or said something wrong and will apologise, but some people just cannot bear their ego's being tested this way and react accordingly.

[anthonyTD]

I've only read the first page and already lost the will to live... The whole argument against transistors is decades old, more modern devices appear to answer these criticisms and Class B amps can now be made with SIMPLE circuits, inaudible distortion at ANY harmonic (well below -80db) and an ability to drive almost anything with no instability (low output impedance giving high damping factor), as they're so much more consistant. Indeed, the only amps that get criticised for crossover distortion and grainy, grey qualities tend to be CB and Olive Naims of old, their owners thinking they're new and bang up-to-date in the components and circuit used.

I'm not saying I'm anti-valve, far from it, but to get as transparent as possible sound from valves does involve considerable expense in terms of output transformers etc and sad to say, the Output-Transformer-Less Croft amp I had used to blow fuses if asked to deliver more than a small amount of current - it sounded great though - when it worked..........

Some audio people are SO narrow minded. Embrace it ALL I say, and have some fun doing it!

hi dave,
i agree
there have been some real good solid state amps, unfortunetly the mainstream stuff that i had the pleasure of listening to in my early days was terible to say the least, but agree again there is good and bad in both technologies, and if we hear that we should embrace it and not be totaly biased towards one or the other, my love for valves is well documented but one of the best preamps i have made to date, the soul-mate is all FET.
regards,anthony,TD...

[DSJR]

Anthony, we've never met and I've only seen your products in pictures (sad for me).

FET's were regarded as a good thing (I loved the Sony 5650 V-FET amp I used from the 70's and the 8650 was even better as I recall), but later on, they were criticised - perhaps because they didn't like the stupid loads presented by the "in" speakers of the early eighties, I don't know.. I know ATC use them in their amps and make the bass (and mid?) drive units in 16 Ohm versions for them, to maintain linearity.

What happened to FET technology? I believe the poster on here (I forget his monika - apologies) who designed the Creek phono stage did an "SE" upgrade with a properly placed FET on the input and I'd have thought as you have that using them in a carefully designed preamp circuit would be ideal..

I'm really looking forward to getting my Quad II's going again - all that colouration but HUGE musical enjoyment (as long as they like the BC2's......)

[Mr. C]

I am afraid that James has a tower of Iron will when it comes all things audio.
I feel you are just wasting your time on a cause that was lost so long ago the Aztec's decided that earth was a piss poor place to reside and did a bunk some 700 light years hence.
Even if you did manage to 'acquire' James for a listening session of merit, it in all fairness would probably make not one jot of difference, as his mind is firmly made up regardless of how good / bad or indifferent the sound maybe.
Do bear in mind he listens through ATCs this will have a large bearing on his thought process. (IME)

[DSJR]

He may listen to ATC's (what's wrong with that?????), but last I read he was siting them on 30" of MANA, which kills bass power (judging by a dem I heard once). he also used a Naim 52 as I recall...

With all respect, using ATC 100A's has nothing to do with it. I used ATC 100A's because there was nowhere to hear the then current big Tannoy range and the better JBL's weren't being imported either to my knowledge and PMC weren't then chasing the domestic market either.. I had some of the happiest audio times of my life during that 3 year stint, only matched today with my hodge-podge direct-drive/1541 chipped CD/valve pre/sand amp/BBC derived speaker ancient system, which is still deeply involving to listen through...

It's the rigid mindset of some of these people I think we can agree on