In praise of the sme v (chapter two)

[talisman2]

In my thread ‘in praise of the sme v’ I did not mean to infer that the ‘v’ was the best arm in the world , I was only pointing out that it was an excellent arm and a fantastic piece of engineering (as are all sme arms) , but I had to defend the ‘V’ against the opinion that it was (and I quote) “ more a statement than an effective device” , and although (I repeat) that I respect the members opinion , I cannot figure out how he came to that opinion ??
I did not realise that it would stir up ‘such a can of worms’ when I posted my original thread but I am pleased by the response and the large number of replies (my best yet !!!!) .
As regards the best tonearm in the world ?? , surely that is the flat one that was mounted on the NAD 5120 turntable ?? (men in white coats at the ready

[Reffc]

+1

there will always be those with agendas Alf yet the "V" remains one of the most enduring of tonearm designs and also remains one of the better ones imho. It has been improved over the years (as has the 309 and IV) with better castings (stiffer and more neutral), and improved bearings too, so remains high in todays rankings as a piece of engineering that works well. Nothing has moved the game on significantly with the exception perhaps of some of the better linear air arms. As for wiring, the VDH stuff is much like any other wiring (silver plated OFC with a shield for each conductor) so whose brand is on the front matters less I guess than the materials and geometry. Internal arm wiring has been improved over the years though.

Marco's VFM point is relevant. There may be better alternatives VFM knocking about today but few will be better (or as well) engineered imho, and the price probably reflects this. I have used the 309 for a fair few years and have no immediate wish to spend more. Part of this relates to the compromises which all vinyl replay systems are. they are not so much as strong as the weakest link but as strong as the sum of all the parts in relation to introduced distortion. For me, the deck is possibly the easiest to get right at reasonable outlay, with the cart making the single biggest sonic difference, all else being equal. I learnt a long time ago simply to pick an arm which will do justice to a good cart, and the SME can do this with the best of carts even today...as will many more at or at half the cost. As cost wasn't part of your initial consideration, I saw nothing wrong with what you posted first time round.

[talisman2]

thanks for your informed comments paul , i don't even own a SME arm , but i thought i had to defend the 'V' (did you like my little skit at the end ??)

[Spectral Morn]

+1

there will always be those with agendas Alf yet the "V" remains one of the most enduring of tonearm designs and also remains one of the better ones imho. It has been improved over the years (as has the 309 and IV) with better castings (stiffer and more neutral), and improved bearings too, so remains high in todays rankings as a piece of engineering that works well. Nothing has moved the game on significantly with the exception perhaps of some of the better linear air arms. As for wiring, the VDH stuff is much like any other wiring (silver plated OFC with a shield for each conductor) so whose brand is on the front matters less I guess than the materials and geometry. Internal arm wiring has been improved over the years though.

Marco's VFM point is relevant. There may be better alternatives VFM knocking about today but few will be better (or as well) engineered imho, and the price probably reflects this. I have used the 309 for a fair few years and have no immediate wish to spend more. Part of this relates to the compromises which all vinyl replay systems are. they are not so much as strong as the weakest link but as strong as the sum of all the parts in relation to introduced distortion. For me, the deck is possibly the easiest to get right at reasonable outlay, with the cart making the single biggest sonic difference, all else being equal. I learnt a long time ago simply to pick an arm which will do justice to a good cart, and the SME can do this with the best of carts even today...as will many more at or at half the cost. As cost wasn't part of your initial consideration, I saw nothing wrong with what you posted first time round.

We will have to disagree Paul, VDH cable has a voice, a sound and its one many don't like and I include myself in that group.

Some feel the issues relating to their dissatisfaction come from the magnesium now used. I can't be sure but I have heard a 309 as is now, compared to an early 309 (my own bought just after the 309 came to market) and I preferred the early one. Was this because its not magnesium or because its not VDH wired (unlike the current one) I am not sure. My gut feeling is its the VDH cable but unless I can compare similar arms wired differently, say with Audio Note silver, Cardas or Sumiko's choice of cable I can't say definitively. Even if I did I suppose I would also need an SME5 in non magnesium to listen to and to my knowledge such a beast has never existed. So its a question that will have to go unanswered.

What I can say - for myself - is that using the VDH output cable severely damages the overall performance so replacing that is a no brainer in my opinion. When the 309 was used on my Oracle Delphi I used a junction box with Audio Note ANV (massive upgrade on the VDH cable) and same on the 5 until I got a spare Graham IC70 cable.

Anyway those are my thoughts, experiences.





Regards Neil

[Spectral Morn]

Marco's VFM point is relevant. There may be better alternatives VFM knocking about today but few will be better (or as well) engineered imho, and the price probably reflects this. I have used the 309 for a fair few years and have no immediate wish to spend more. Part of this relates to the compromises which all vinyl replay systems are. they are not so much as strong as the weakest link but as strong as the sum of all the parts in relation to introduced distortion. For me, the deck is possibly the easiest to get right at reasonable outlay, with the cart making the single biggest sonic difference, all else being equal. I learnt a long time ago simply to pick an arm which will do justice to a good cart, and the SME can do this with the best of carts even today...as will many more at or at half the cost. As cost wasn't part of your initial consideration, I saw nothing wrong with what you posted first time round.

Re FVM this may not be as clear cut, it may be a case of synergy lacking, mismatched cart to arm, cart arm to TT or just arm to TT.

I mentioned earlier my failed matching of that SME 309 to a Voyd Valdi, it sounded awful, flat, unmusical. The Rega 300 which had been on it with the same cart a VDH MC10 sounded fabulous. This wasn't a case of bad matching with the SME 309 as the same MC10 sounded fabulous on the 309 but on the Oracle Delphi - a turntable that works well with SME arms.

So was the cheaper Rega 300 better than the SME309 ? No, it just worked better on the Valdi than the 309 had. I suspect in some cases folks not rating items dearer than others could simply be down to cheaper items gelling better and nothing more than that.

System matching and in particular the mechanical matching of turntables to arms and carts, is an art, and just sticking any old arm with any cart on any turntable, regardless of the cost, pedigree of the individual items does not guarantee anything. That experience with the Valdi taught me that, a valuable lesson.


Regards Neil

[Wakefield Turntables]

I couldn't get on with the vdh cabling. I had mine replaced with Kondo silver wire+Teflon braid and additional Kondo silver cartridge tags. Wow, what a difference. I prefer the clinically neutral sound of the V. I have a rather good valve system if I want warm and cuddly.

[Marco]

Oi - valves (done properly) do NOT sound 'warm & cuddly'!!

Marco.

[Beobloke]

Marco's VFM point is relevant. There may be better alternatives VFM knocking about today but few will be better (or as well) engineered imho, and the price probably reflects this.

Thing is, though, Paul, this is all relative. I have spent time with more than a handful of arms that are at least double the price of the SME V and in one case, triple. Not one of them was as well built - one in particular had a VTA collar that wouldn't tighten properly and a counterweight that made horrible squeaking noises when you adjusted it (and this came from a large and very well known manufacturer of turntables, arms and cartridges!). Equally they all offered a slightly different sonic presentation but none were noticeably better (or indeed worse) than the V.

If you take this into account, the V suddenly looks like decent value!

[Marco]

Outside of out-and-out shit and unreliable, though, what's more important with a tonearm, build quality/looks or absolute sound quality?

As far as I'm concerned, as long as the arm is reliable to use and doesn't look like a dog's dinner, the latter wins out BIG TIME, every time!

That's why I don't 'get' this w*nking over how 'wonderful' SME arms look [I happen to disagree on that], or are built, if they don't ALSO sound considerably better than anything else you can afford to buy...

Hi-fi equipment is simply a tool: a means to an end, and that end is to play music. And speakers (perhaps) aside, not to act as ornaments to be admired!

Marco.

[Reffc]

Thing is, though, Paul, this is all relative. I have spent time with more than a handful of arms that are at least double the price of the SME V and in one case, triple. Not one of them was as well built - one in particular had a VTA collar that wouldn't tighten properly and a counterweight that made horrible squeaking noises when you adjusted it (and this came from a large and very well known manufacturer of turntables, arms and cartridges!). Equally they all offered a slightly different sonic presentation but none were noticeably better (or indeed worse) than the V.

If you take this into account, the V suddenly looks like decent value!

Agreed Adam. By the same token, there area few less expensive which are very well engineered and have their own signature which may be different rather than better or worse. Yes, your point is valid and I agree with you.