Stereo Image ?

[walpurgis]

I used to use an Ultimo 10X, so, who remembers them...?

Yup. Had one new, way back!

[lurcher]

a massive stereo image that swirls all over the room. 180 degrees left and right, in front, up and down, it is all over the bloody place. Not so with the vinyl…

Vinyl mastering has a problem with a lot of out of phase information (just think what the grove walls have to do to reproduce it), so its entirely possible that a lot of it was removed for the vinyl master. Initial pressings of Electric Ladyland was "improved" in the same way.

[Haselsh1]

Vinyl mastering has a problem with a lot of out of phase information (just think what the grove walls have to do to reproduce it), so its entirely possible that a lot of it was removed for the vinyl master. Initial pressings of Electric Ladyland was "improved" in the same way.

OK, so I admit, I don't understand the mechanics of vinyl versus CD but I do know that what I want is the stereo image I am currently getting from CD. I also prefer the bass power and grip of CD but also admit that the Rotel power amps are slightly 'soft' when compared to some amplifiers. I reckon my way forward is to buy the Croft Series 7 monoblocks maybe around September and then reassess the situation regarding vinyl and CD. I love the romantic notion that surrounds vinyl but I just get a lot more of what I want from CD and at a massively lower cost.

[Haselsh1]

Yup. Had one new, way back!

Yeah, bought my first one in 1979 at a cost brand new of 65 quid.

[Haselsh1]

Yeah, bought my first one in 1979 at a cost brand new of 65 quid.

And, it was on a brand new Thorens TD160 BC fitted with a totally inapropriate Mayware Formula 4 tonearm.

[cloth-ears]

Welcome to the “Dark Side” Shaun. There is a lot of snobbery regarding vinyl. It’s been around since the dawn of man and is deeply etched into many a warm heart.

Unfortunately the best record on the best turntable/arm/cart on the best day will struggle to achieve 8 bit’s of resolution. Coupled with this the embarrassingly poor SNR of the mid to high 70db range leaves a lot to be desired

When CD’s first came out they were mixed by people used to mixing analogue. This lead to a rather crappy over bright sound on many CD’s.

Digital has come a long way since those early days.

Stereo imaging is heavily dependant not only bandwidth but phase integrity. At this, digital is king.

At this point I have to say IMHO, otherwise I’ll get me head kicked in

[Audio Advent]

Welcome to the “Dark Side” Shaun. There is a lot of snobbery regarding vinyl. It’s been around since the dawn of man and is deeply etched into many a warm heart.

Unfortunately the best record on the best turntable/arm/cart on the best day will struggle to achieve 8 bit’s of resolution. Coupled with this the embarrassingly poor SNR of the mid to high 70db range leaves a lot to be desired

When CD’s first came out they were mixed by people used to mixing analogue. This lead to a rather crappy over bright sound on many CD’s.

Digital has come a long way since those early days.

Stereo imaging is heavily dependant not only bandwidth but phase integrity. At this, digital is king.

At this point I have to say IMHO, otherwise I’ll get me head kicked in

I guess it's harder to kick two people's heads in at the same time without us both just lying down and waiting for them to jump..

I agree.

I remember a film score producer saying similar things on a radio program when the presenter was asking about his time through the transition from tape to digital. He was saying that compared to digital there is just too much cross-talk and in his experience with comparing masters with the very best first vinyl press, it was closed in in stereo terms compared to the tape but when digital came along, the stereo width was preserved.

Then of course it is necessary to make mono the bass frequencies when mastering for vinyl.

The sad thing is that when you are talking about a physical moving thing making the music, you are limited by the physics of how that thing is moved about. If vinyl had two needles, one for each channel, the story would be SO different! Then also think about how accurately the movement translates to the stereo signal - in theory a 45 degree movement from upper right to lower left will give a signal purely on one channel. But how accurate are the magnets or coils placed in the cartridge to only give a signal in one channel for an accurate 45 degree movement? How much do the magnetic fields of one channel bleed into the other channel's coils? How accurate is the cut in the vinyl groove's wall? How flat is the record so that those grooves give 45 degrees anyway? Is it poorly pressed anyway (and who want's to spend an age finding the perfect one? I just want to listen to music...)?

So many variables that you have to decide to accept vinyl's limitations and concentrate on it's strengths. Digital is for hearing things like stereo effects as they were intended.

Don't have to spend £1200 though on good digital. I've been bowled over by Stan's Caiman 2 DAC as have many people - that's about £250.

[Audio Advent]

As a complete aside, I wonder if anyone has thought about a cartridge which used another method of signal generation than old school magnets. There most be something else tiny one could use whilst still using a stylus.. something optical? I'd expect a much better channel separation if something other than magnets were used, not to mention the possible lightening of the mechanism and therefore faster response to the groove.

[walpurgis]

As a complete aside, I wonder if anyone has thought about a cartridge which used another method of signal generation than old school magnets. There most be something else tiny one could use whilst still using a stylus.. something optical? I'd expect a much better channel separation if something other than magnets were used, not to mention the possible lightening of the mechanism and therefore faster response to the groove.

It's all been done before. Optical, strain gauge, etc., You name it, somebody has made it!

[Barry]

It's all been done before. Optical, strain gauge, etc., You name it, somebody has made it!

Yep - even variable capacitance, or if you like, an electrostatic cartridge.