1200 which PSU & which arm comparisons

[jfine]

I am debating whether or not I should upgrade my 1200MK5. (Sorry if this is in the wrong forum).

I've read a lot of posts here, and on a few other forums, but I haven't seen much in the way of the comparisons I'm looking for.

I currently have a KAB Fluid Damper, Cardas wired tonearm, external power supply (PS-1200), Isonoe footers, and a few mats I play around with. I run a Dyna 20XH and Dyna P-75 MKII.

I see some here have went with a Timestep PSU, but I do not see much comparison between that and the KAB PS-1200, except on www.soundhifi.com. Well, basically the site says it's better, in so many words. Hmm.

OK, also I'm thinking of the www.soundhifi.com upgrade using either a Jelco or SME arm, and again, I'm looking for comparisons to those arms versus a Fluid damped/cardas stock arm. I'm just looking for opinions, not really things like if an SME costs that much it should be better type of thing. Just a real honest answer really especially if someone's actually tried it.

Thanks in advance

[Marco]

Hi,

Welcome to AOS. What's your first name and where are you from?

Well, since I own the same T/T as you (a MK5) and have had it both fully KAB'd and (now) Time-step'd, fitted with a Jelco SA-750D (and also Isonoes), I'm probably qualified to comment...

With regard to the two PSUs, the time-step is a no-brainer upgrade from the KAB, bringing a greater sense of rhythm and drive, less noise, greater clarity and dynamics, and improved pitch and timing (amongst many other things) - all of which combine to give you much more insight into music, allowing it to 'breathe' more freely and really unlocking the magic contained in those grooves.

The other significant factor is that, when fitting the off-board PSU, KAB retain the original unit underneath the platter, leaving a magnetic field surrounding the playing area traversed by the cartridge, and this has quite a detrimental effect on sound quality, causing hum in some circumstances, and giving an 'opaque' characteristic to music that when identified is quite unpleasant. Therefore, if you're using the KAB PSU, a free upgrade is to take the platter off and remove the original PSU and casing. The improvement in sound quality is easily heard!

I can go into more detail on the PSU issue should you wish if you outline any specific information required

As far as the KAB-modified stock tonearm goes (with fluid damper) - I also had mine Cardas-rewired; it is very good (fitted with a decent headshell like the Sumiko), but again, much like with the PSU, things move onto another level entrirely when substituting it for the likes of a Jelco (either the 250 or 750, depending on what cartridge you're using).

What holds the Technics arm back, even when KAB-modified, is that the armtube is quite resonant (as indeed most are), but not in a 'pleasant' or euphonic way. The main resonant arm mode gives a 'peaky, 'shouty' quality to the sound which is very obvious once something much better behaved (damped) in that respect is fitted such as a Jelco or SME.

Therefore, not only is distortion lowered quite significantly, but the higher quality bearings on the Jelco and tighter tolerances in terms of overall engineering, enable the cartridge to reveal so much more musical information it's frightening!

Again, I can go into more detail on this if you wish, and handle any specifics you may have.

Hopefully that should keep you going for now

Marco.

[jfine]

Hi,

Welcome to AOS. What's your first name and where are you from?

Well, since I own the same T/T as you (a MK5) and have had it both fully KAB'd and (now) Time-step'd, fitted with a Jelco SA-750D (and also Isonoes), I'm probably qualified to comment...

With regard to the two PSUs, the time-step is a no-brainer upgrade from the KAB, bringing a greater sense of rhythm and drive, less noise, greater clarity and dynamics, and improved pitch and timing (amongst many other things) - all of which combine to give you much more insight into the music, allowing it to 'breathe' more freely and really unlocking the magic contained in those grooves.

The other significant factor is that, when fitting the off-board PSU, KAB retain the original unit underneath the platter, leaving a magnetic field surrounding the playing area traversed by the cartridge, and this has quite a detrimental effect on sound quality, causing hum in some circumstances, and giving an 'opaque' characteristic to music that when identified is quite unpleasant. Therefore, if you're using the KAB PSU, a free upgrade is to take the platter off and remove the original PSU and casing. The improvement in sound quality is easily heard!

I can go into more detail on the PSU issue should you wish if you outline the specific information required

As far as the KAB-modified stock tonearm goes (with fluid damper) - I also had mine Cardas-rewired; it is very good (fitted with a decent headshell like the Sumiko), but again, much like with the PSU, things move onto another level entrirely when substituting it for the likes of a Jelco (either the 250 or 750, depending on what cartridge you're using).

What holds the Technics arm back, even when KAB-modified, is that the armtube is quite resonant (as indeed most are), but not in a 'pleasant' or euphonic way. The main resonant arm mode gives a 'peaky, 'shouty' quality to the sound which is very obvious once something much better behaved (damped) in that respect is fitted such as a Jelco or SME.

Therefore, not only is distortion lowered quite significantly, but the higher quality bearings on the Jelco and tighter tolerances in terms of overall engineering, enable the cartridge to reveal so much more musical information it's frightening!

Again, I can go into more detail on this if you wish, and handle any specifics you may have.

Hopefully that should keep you going for now

Marco.

Thanks for reply. I'm from West Oregon USA. As far as my name I could give you a false one to appease you but instead I'll be honest and say that my personal preference is to keep my personal stuff, well personal. Don't take it personal. Anyways guys it's smart practice not to leave some of your stuff around the internet. Just call me jfine.

I actually would like more info on the KAB vs Timestep issue. What I'm looking for is the technical reasons why. I have heard both sides (not all) to this story, and will say that what I've found is that there's a lot of very enticing and colorful metaphors used when comparing. I've talked with Kevin @ KAB and I'm aware that they [KAB/soundhifi] both know of each other's designs and reasons/arguments to their choices. (I don't however want to start anything). One thing I have noticed is that KAB does not hang out or push his products as hard, so that might be the reason why some people will be swayed by listening to the other product rather forward advertising. I mean, soundhifi does talk about the KAB. Know what I'm sayin? The 2 websites are very different as well. Another selling point. Sometimes, when things (mods) are very close, you hear what you want to hear or what was told to hear. I've done that with power cables, and man I still have a hard time deciding on those.

Also did you have the Isonoes before your Timestep/tonearm upgrade? Did you also use the Timestep upgrade by itself for a while without any other changes?

I've also heard about the magnetic field issue with the old motor, and I did try that, but to be honest, I didn't hear a difference. (So I painstakingly put it back, PITA, cussing myself the whole time). Wonder if that can even be measured. Also I wonder if removing the motor becomes more apparent with the Timestep? Shouldn't, but who knows? Besides, what about the magnets directly under the platter? Must be a different kind of field or not as strong. Any comments on that?

But back to the arms, this is one area that I find hard to make a choice. This mainly due to I dont want to spend that kind of dough and find out it really isn't that much different. Ever done that? I have. I will say that my arm has some cotton batting inside front and back, to help with resonance. I also have a plastic plug in the back where the extra weight screws into--that little metal plate may cause a ring. But those two mods are probably subjective. I know exactly what you mean by 'peaky, 'shouty', that, to me, went away with the fluid damper. I use it half full. I also hear very good arguments about the quality of the bearings/tolerances in the stock arm. Both sides always have good arguments, dang. Like the one about the technics arm costs being cheap but would be as high dollar as some other arms if it weren't mass produced. Not easy to make that bearing setup either. You know the Jelco/SME LOOK better to most people, I will say that. Hard for most people not to be psychologically affected by that. Not to get off the subject too much, but I'm a function over form guy, I dont care much what my gear looks like, I have never drooled over the looks of high dollar TT's, just doesn't hit my you know what I guess

The last part of the equation is the kind of music I listen to. I don't listen to classical/symphony, which from what I hear brings out a lot of these small nuances. I dont listen to jazz, punk, metal, rap, or country either. (I know sad isnt it?, But this is my vinyl choice, Digitally I listen to a lot of things). I listen to mostly 60's/70's and some later rock. I've always thought that this kind of music first of all most is not recorded that well, and so I dont hear good source. But sometimes I'll pull out a floyd or parsons but even then it's only as good as the source, right?

So having said all that, the differences between the PSU's/tonearms leave me skeptical. But that's why I'm here, to hear other people's experiences since it's cheaper than to just go buy it all. I very much appreciate your response, thanks!
.

[Marco]

Hi J (we'll call you that then, but personally I don't see any issues of 'security' with giving a first name only )

There's a lot to digest there, and as I never rush my responses, I'll need some time to put my thoughts together to answer the points you've raised properly.

Bear with me and I'll come back to you later

Meanwhile, could I ask that you pop into the welcome area and introduce yourself and the system you're using (as we ask of all our new members)?

Cheers!

Marco.

[SteveW]

Be careful jfine...cos we'll groom ya.

[DSJR]

I was always taught to do the deck first, followed by the arm.

I was offered a shagged tecchie arm to play with. one thing that surprised me was how light weight the tube is. As the bearings are so good, i wonder if there's any mileage in someone making a heavier and better damped tube with dedicated counterweight. this may be possible to do for not much dosh, although Technics wouldn't be interested it seems.

There is another Jelco arm or two around. I don't know how much better the cheaper options are when compared to the standard/modified arm, but it wouldn't hurt to find out - Mr Cawley sir?????

[Marco]

Hi Jeff,

I actually would like more info on the KAB vs Timestep issue. What I'm looking for is the technical reasons why.

Not my area, I'm afraid. There are others here though who are qualified to comment whom I'm sure would be more than willing to offer you the benefit of their expertise.

I have heard both sides (not all) to this story, and will say that what I've found is that there's a lot of very enticing and colorful metaphors used when comparing.

Indeed; such is the way with hi-fi. All I can say is that I have no vested interest in either KAB or Sound Hi-fi modifications/products - I rate and have used both, so any "colorful metaphors" I may have used in reference to either are genuine and simply the results of what I hear.

Until I discovered Sound Hi-fi (and Dave Cawley) and was introduced to the Time-Step PSU, Jelco, etc, I used the KAB products with great success, and indeed eulogised about them on many forums, including here. Kevin's Technics T/T modifications and his considerable research into the design are what got me into the Techy and the whole 'D/D thing'.

But as with anything in hi-fi, new boys come on the block, and raise the game further still, which was where Dave Cawley and Sound Hi-fi came in...

I've talked with Kevin @ KAB and I'm aware that they [KAB/soundhifi] both know of each other's designs and reasons/arguments to their choices. (I don't however want to start anything). One thing I have noticed is that KAB does not hang out or push his products as hard, so that might be the reason why some people will be swayed by listening to the other product rather forward advertising.

I've also spoken with Kevin on the phone, and we've exchanged numerous emails on the subject of the SL-1200/1210. I have the utmost respect for him and also his products. He's a helpful chap, although he does perhaps sometimes take on more work than he can realistically handle, which can lead to considerable delays in orders being released, particularly to UK customers.

Kevin and Dave are just different characters (as engineers they also have different approaches), and the way they run their respective businesses reflects this. Certainly Dave advertises more rigorously, probably because he's come in at a point where the modified SL-1200/1210 is really taking off now, due not just to his level of advertising, but the numerous reviews on audio forums and in hi-fi magazines, so quite naturally he wishes to maximise his slice of the action. Business is business, after all. Dave is just a little more 'proactive' in his approach - no bad thing, IMO.

Furthermore, he's very passionate about high quality direct-drive T/Ts, and a more methodical and meticulous designer, you'll rarely meet. He's also an absolute pleasure to deal with and extremely efficient in terms of the service he offers to customers. Dave is, all-in-all, a very switched-on chap.

Sometimes, when things (mods) are very close, you hear what you want to hear or what was told to hear. I've done that with power cables, and man I still have a hard time deciding on those.

I know what you mean, but for me, as good as the KAB mods are for the SL-1200/1210, the Sound Hi-fi ones take it to another level. The Time-Step PSU just simply ekes out more performance. Power cables are a thorny subject, but I've always found no trouble hearing pretty big differences between a bog-standard kettle lead and, say, the Transparent Reference cables I'm currently using.

Also did you have the Isonoes before your Timestep/tonearm upgrade? Did you also use the Timestep upgrade by itself for a while without any other changes?

No to both questions. I bought the Isonoes from Kevin (along with my table and all the KAB mods) and had all that from day one. The Time Step came much later.

I've also heard about the magnetic field issue with the old motor, and I did try that, but to be honest, I didn't hear a difference.

Mmmm... That's very strange, as it's most noticeable to me (and others I know), but then there are so many variables with these things it's impossible to always get the same results in every situation.

(So I painstakingly put it back, PITA, cussing myself the whole time). Wonder if that can even be measured.

Why did you bother putting back the original PSU if you've got a PS-1200? It's not doing anything. I'd have just left it out and be done with it.

Also I wonder if removing the motor becomes more apparent with the Timestep? Shouldn't, but who knows? Besides, what about the magnets directly under the platter? Must be a different kind of field or not as strong. Any comments on that?

For me it just makes sense not to have a big lump of ferrous metal with a defunct PSU in it underneath generating a field where a 'delicate' MC cartridge is retrieving musical information. It's just bad practice, in my opinion. I'm surprised that Technics didn't think of this and put it somewhere else, perhaps underneath the plinth. No idea about what effect the magnets under the platter have, but I'm of the opinion that one less field existing is an improvement.

But back to the arms, this is one area that I find hard to make a choice. This mainly due to I dont want to spend that kind of dough and find out it really isn't that much different.

Well, to be quite blunt, if you replace the modded Technics arm with, say a Jelco SA-750D, and you don't hear a big difference, then I'd give up your interests in hi-fi! That particular upgrade is definitely not a subtle one, however much depends on what cartridge is going to be used. What are your plans in that area?

I know exactly what you mean by 'peaky, 'shouty', that, to me, went away with the fluid damper.

The fluid damper reduces the effect but when you fit something that is fundamentally much better engineered such as the Jelco, it renders the stock Technics arm, fluid-damped or not, as pretty poor second-class citizen. You're simply moving up to another league entirely. Have you not had your arm Cardas-rewired? That makes much more of a difference than the fluid damping. Also what headshell are you using? The stock Technics one is only good enough for a budget moving magnet cartridge.

I also hear very good arguments about the quality of the bearings/tolerances in the stock arm. Both sides always have good arguments, dang. Like the one about the technics arm costs being cheap but would be as high dollar as some other arms if it weren't mass produced.

The quality of the bearings on the stock arm are very good - this is not the arm's weak point, and yes it would cost much more if it were made by a smaller manufacturer with considerably less available resources. However, on a Jelco or an SME you not only have superb quality bearings, but an equally high quality armtube, particularly in the case of the SME. Make no mistake, the stock Technics arm in whatever guise is but a toy in comparison to either of the above, but the only way you will discover this is to fit a better tonearm and listen!

You know the Jelco/SME LOOK better to most people, I will say that. Hard for most people not to be psychologically affected by that. Not to get off the subject too much, but I'm a function over form guy, I dont care much what my gear looks like, I have never drooled over the looks of high dollar TT's, just doesn't hit my you know what I guess

It's got nothing whatsoever to do with looks, the Jelcos and SMEs are just far superior tonearms - period, *if* you're using a high quality MC cartridge. The stock arm, modified or not, is more than good enough for MM cartridges, which put less demand on a tonearm. I do love the look of the SA-750D, but I can assure you that I did not buy it for that reason. I too am a function over form guy - I wouldn't use multi-level Mana supports, which some say look like rejects from an oil rig, if that wasn't the case!

The last part of the equation is the kind of music I listen to. I don't listen to classical/symphony, which from what I hear brings out a lot of these small nuances. I dont listen to jazz, punk, metal, rap, or country either. (I know sad isnt it?, But this is my vinyl choice, Digitally I listen to a lot of things). I listen to mostly 60's/70's and some later rock. I've always thought that this kind of music first of all most is not recorded that well, and so I dont hear good source. But sometimes I'll pull out a floyd or parsons but even then it's only as good as the source, right?

Indeed. It also depends what you listen for in music. I'm less into analysing small nuances than I am maximising a turntable's ability to extract emotion and musical communication from recordings - in essence to get right at the heart of the musical message. This for me is what hi-fi is all about, and the Sound Hi-fi-modified SL-1210 provides the requisite level of insight to put a huge smile on my face every time I listen.

Honestly, Jeff, I'd quite happily put my modified SL-1210 up against ANY turntable on the marketplace and feel that it would outperform most, and compete admirably with the very best - yes, that good!!

So having said all that, the differences between the PSU's/tonearms leave me skeptical. But that's why I'm here, to hear other people's experiences since it's cheaper than to just go buy it all. I very much appreciate your response, thanks!

You're more than welcome. It's all about sharing experiences and helping each other out - something which is at the core of what AOS is all about. Perhaps next time make your posts shorter, so it won't take me so long to reply!

Marco.

[jfine]

OK, thanks. I'll take things one at a time and make it shorter.

[DSJR]

I suspect Dave is more vociferous with his website is to get more people aware of what he does for a living. The last dealer I worked for tended to use his business as a cash-cow and he soon pulled the plug when he realised he wasn't going to get loads of dosh out of it, including a substantial rent on the premises, which he also owned. His ex-business partner went the other way and increased his profile. He's still going last I heard and is something of a legend in certain circles (DEFINITELY non SL1200 circles though ).

[jfine]

Also did you have the Isonoes before your Timestep/tonearm upgrade? Did you also use the Timestep upgrade by itself for a while without any other changes?

No to both questions. I bought the Isonoes from Kevin (along with my table and all the KAB mods) and had all that from day one. The Time Step came much later.

So about the second question. When you started using the Timestep, what other mods happened? I guess what I'm driving at is if you changed something else besides just the Timestamp when you got it, how can you know the Timestamp was better than the KAB PSU sonically?