Speaker positioning-sound stage and its depth.

[DSJR]

Nothing at all wrong with mono if it's done right.

You may be having a problem with some CD masterings as the added eq given to the vinyl cuts doesn't work when these recordings are dubbed for digital. neither do afficionado's like the later Decca cuts compared to the black label originals for the same reason - the old cuts NEEDED heavy equalisation and the later Neumann - lathe cut ones didn't (neither do thre CD's made from the same tapes), but people were used to the tone-corrected originals.

I understand the same thing originally happened with some of the jazz transfers, the LP originals having eq'd up bass lacking in the CD's.

Finally, the original Sony 1630 pro DAC had NO effect on the sound when looped A-d/D-A and fed with unity gain through a tape loop. The main problem was early proprietory digital editors and mixing desks, which had masses of audible problems. No amount of software will be able to totally eradicate these horrid old manipulators, but that was sorted long ago and judging by some of the sympathetic re-mastering done by the likes of the Audio Archiving Company (ex Decca engineers), I'm happy with the situation.

Thread drift again - apologies all..

[Varun]

I do not see any thread drift- but value your comments.

May be sources were not good that stood up to an A/B comparison. Here we are introducing another variable. The sound of those ffss Decca's and late 60s Decca's is still good but we seem to lose the plot with thinner vinyl.

The CD in that Accuphase/VTL/Proac Response (4 or 5) was Dark side the Moon and so should have come from the same source as LPs.

I had another disappointing experience when I after returning from NZ visited my old dealer in South London. I listened to a few tracks of music I did not know then chose Rimsky Korasakoff's Shehrezade. The amplification and CD player I was told cost about 50K,and the speakers second to best of the range.

The opening orchestral explosive salvo failed to explode-was flat totally flat. I have never had this experience with vinyl even of the lowest quality. The very expensive system came from one of the BIG NAMES- we have heard mentioned on this forum.

[Macca]

Hi Varun

I use a more modest set up I am sure and my speakers (Celestion A2 - D'Appolito driver arrangement) are not known for their outstanding imaging.

My experience is that to talk serious soundstaging a room must be large enough to allow the positioning of a big, full range speaker ( of any design) so that it is clear of side and rear walls by at least 2 foot and allowing at least 14 foot from speaker front to ears. Distance between speakers must also be adequate - say 8-10 foot.

Or you can use small speakers and set up as a near field but then you are losing the scale and drama.

I have listened to one of my favourites - Sinatra Live at the Sands CD (in dim light, half a bottle of quality plonk to the good, admittedly) and had the whole back end of the room open up into the auditorium; with Sinatra centre but way back from the speaker plane, the band arrayed in an arc behing him, and then, overlaid on that, wine glasses clinking at the tables way up front and to the left of the left speaker. Not holographic or anything - don't get me wrong..but it was a taste of a mesmerising effect and I think well worth pursuing in earnest if at all possible.

I think dealer demos suffer from the rooms not being so good, and the subjective issue of not being 'at home and relaxed' which is what you are every other time you are listening 'critically' to music.

However if at £50K the damn thing cannot even do an opening crescendo...what can be said?

Martin

[Varun]

Hi Martin,

You are absolutley spot on and speak my mind-I mean the purpose of the thread. But then this would be well known to all the experts on the forum. I have kept the speakers at least 3 feet from the walls and well away from the corners. You need very big rooms but sadly most of us have never been able to afford such houses. Yes the system has to have place to breath and very important if one has a sizeable gap between the speakers and the listening position. Sitting close to the back wall creates its own problems with the reflected sound reaching your ears also- especially the resonance of low frequencies.

So a squarish rectangle of substantial size. My lounge in NZ was 27x15. I tried a Thiel model -did not like it then a B&W 804 and realized it was too small for the room-hence the 803. An 802 (beyond my pocket) would have been too big for that room.

[Macca]

Hi Martin,

You are absolutley spot on and speak my mind-I mean the purpose of the thread. But then this would be well known to all the experts on the forum. I have kept the speakers at least 3 feet from the walls and well away from the corners. You need very big rooms but sadly most of us have never been able to afford such houses. Yes the system has to have place to breath and very important if one has a sizeable gap between the speakers and the listening position. Sitting close to the back wall creates its own problems with the reflected sound reaching your ears also- especially the resonance of low frequencies.

So a squarish rectangle of substantial size. My lounge in NZ was 27x15. I tried a Thiel model -did not like it then a B&W 804 and realized it was too small for the room-hence the 803. An 802 (beyond my pocket) would have been too big for that room.

I'm sort of surprised that 27'x15' would still be too small. In basic theory is it not large enough for any domestic speaker? My room is 29' by 11.5' and I think would handle a far larger speaker than the A2 without any issue - my personal interest lies in the big JBLs - I reckon a K2 would work superbly in the space - but then I look at the dual 12'' version and immediately think - 'too big'

The sitting position is pretty much as important as the 'speaker placement - my listening position is on a padded couch against the back wall - if I lean forward maybe 20 degrees I change the sound stage significantly. If I kneel 2 feet in front of the couch it is different again. (I'm talking soundstage changes here and not changes in overall sound quality).

My personal choice is nowadays to go with the philosophy 'a good big 'un in a good, big room' and try and get the rest of the kit to match from that point on. The alternative - smaller standmounts across the width of the room - well I have tried it and wheras it can be just as musically enjoyable I strongly suspect that it is possible to have one's cake and eat it in terms of having quality and depth of sound, tight deep bass, dynamics and soundstage with the larger room/larger 'speaker approach. - What I am suggesting here is that a good set up environment will add so much plus it will compensate for any slight issues with the kit and then some.

Regards

Martin

[Varun]

Thanks Martin,

I agree entirely that the best person to decide is you yourself. The speakers have to be fairly wide apart as well although I have never followed the equilateral triangle business. I think by big I meant footprint. The bigger B&Ws are very deep and so take up a lot of floor space. I personally would have the LF response getting out of control in a narrow room. Please look at the images of Mike Reed's set up. I do not know the dimensions of his room - but he seems to have set his speakers up very nicely.

You are obviously a very acute and critical listener-an essential ingredient for the enjoyment of music.

[Varun]

I meant I would worry about the LF.......

[Mike Reed]

Thanks Martin,

Please look at the images of Mike Reed's set up. I do not know the dimensions of his room - but he seems to have set his speakers up very nicely.

Thank you, Varun; however, my speakers are 'plonked down' rather than 'nicely positioned'. They are just too damned heavy to experiment much ! They do work superbly where they are, though.

Room has just been widened by two and a half to five feet or so, so now it is a weird and irregular shape (I'm a believer in avoiding symmetrical rooms, especially squares or perfect rectangles). General dimensions are about 25 feet long into bay window, 10'6" where the speakers are, (but 9' behind them) widening to 16 plus feet, then narrowing to 14'6" at the equipment/ seating end.

The Stereophile review on the ProAc Response 4s in 1994 advocated a slightly asymmetrical position. Odd, but they don't seem to be that fussed as long as they're about two-thirds down the room, whether powered by s/state or 509s.

[Varun]

Thanks Mike,

It is the space behind which so imporatant. I could not agree more with room shape- but then do we have a choice? My room in Devon- Music Room and Office (WAF did not come into it) and not lounger as the lounger is much bigger and accommodates my daughters 6.1 foot Grand Piano- is 24x14- narrowing to about 11 at the listening end- so that I sat a good 18 feet away from the speakers. The narrower end held the desk -filing and loads of books. The narrowing was caused by a smaller cubby hole which acted as storage and wine cellar.

[Mike Reed]

Sounds ideal, VARUN, except for the 18 feet between you and speakers; fairly laid-back presentation at that distance, I'd imagine.