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Thread: Yamaha NS1000M - Tweaks

  1. #251
    Join Date: Feb 2012

    Location: Falun, Sweden

    Posts: 2,217
    I'm Mike.

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    Thanks for the update Ken! Looking forward to reading about your progress in the "active domain"!

  2. #252
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Durham - UK

    Posts: 1,437
    I'm Ken.

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    I tried the Scanspeak and Yamaha 12” Bass units in my semi active project, running them with Quad Bookshelf units, so have experienced their different traits under similar conditions.






    My concerns about the Scanspeaks ability to perform in the upper bass and crossover region were unfounded and it out performed the Yamaha in every area. Obviously from the specification, it would have deeper bass, but its noticeably a lot deeper, which gives a strong platform to work with. Its faster and tighter, not that the Yamaha is poor in these areas, but the Scanspeak is better and can only improve in a more rigid cabinet. The big surprise was in its upper region, where it is subtle and tuneful, blending seamlessly with the Quad mid range. Comparatively the Yamaha bass is muddy and slow, not that I would ever have said that prior to the comparison, as I like the Yamaha's a lot. The weakest link with the Yamaha is the tweeter, ragged low end and falls off rapid at 15kHz. The Yam mid range is crossed quite high at 6kHz to deal with this. With a shallow filter slope the Mid range driver dominates well up the spectrum, the tweeter contributes little to the program as can be demonstrated by switching it in and out during play.

    I'm building a Hypex DLCP/UcD Pre/Crossover/Power unit in another thread. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...cD-Amp-Project

    The plan for my next experiment, is to use this DSP set up to try the Yamaha Mid range with the Scanspeak Bass and Fountek Ribbon Tweeter. It's a modern take on what Yamaha produced and is the NS-1000M revisited. It has great potential, but only trying it will confirm this and satisfy my curiosity. The Fountek NeoX 2.0 Ribbon can be crossed from as low as 2300 Hz 2nd order. It might be nice to move the mid range crossover point down and away from 6kHz, where sibilance lies. 4kHz with a steeper slope might be a good starting point.

    Looking at the Fountek Spec sheets, for the Neo X Series, the NeoX 2.0 has the flattest, smoothest response in the range. I was impressed with the NeoX 1.0 used by Quad and the NeoX 2.0 looks a bit better. So my plan is:

    1). Obtain a pair of NeoX 2.0 Ribbon Tweeters.
    2). Make Router templates for the Tweeter and Yamaha Mid Range.
    3). Construct a temporary Baffle to mount the Mid/Tweeter.
    4). Construct a lash up of the active Hypex DLCP to run this set up, using my Nakamichi Power amp.

    So I have quite a bit to get on with.
    Ken

    http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/
    DIY Technics/ProJect based Turntable + Terminator linear tracker + AT 33PTG II / AQVOX Phono 2 CI / Pro-Ject Pre Box RS / ESP Active X-Over / Nakamichi AVP1 Power / Modified semi-active Yamaha NS1000M Speakers / Stello CDT100 Transport / NAD M51 DAC.

  3. #253
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Durham - UK

    Posts: 1,437
    I'm Ken.

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    This project has changed a lot during its time, so much so, that it is no longer about the Yamaha NS-1000m or any of its components, so I've started a new project for an active 3-way and thought I would wind this project up.
    I decided to put the NS-1000M back to its original (Passive) specification, I still had the original x-overs so this was not very difficult to achieve.



    I've learnt a lot during my experimenting, the most important thing, is that the NS-1000m has it's own character and this shines through whether you are passive/active/digital. Like all speakers, they are not perfect, they have little in the way of deep bass, but what they do have, is plenty of punch in the mid bass due to a rise in response at this point. With a bit of room reinforcement they are good for 50Hz, maybe just under. Where they shine is in the mid range and top end, with clarity and imaging that is rare to find. My original thought was to put the speakers back to original spec and sell them on, trouble is, I'm enjoying them too much.

    My advice to any owner of the NS-1000m who is thinking of tweaking, is something I learnt from Paul Coupe (Reference Fidelity Components) and applies to any classic speaker, keep it simple and swap like for like, or you risk loosing the magic you enjoyed in the first place.

    To this end, let me guide you through the changes I made and destroy a few myths along the way.
    The simple re-cap I completed at the beginning of this project freshens things up and brings the speakers to a level, which is probably not much better than the day they were made, but more importantly, does not change the speakers character, so lets go through what I did to achieve the crossovers pictured below.



    My advice on how to freshen up the NS-1000m

    1. Change the spring loaded speaker terminals, nothing fancy needed, just some Gold plated Brass posts, as fitted earlier in the project - Avoid cheap white metal posts, if you buy off the Bay, check them by scratching off the Gold at the solder tip with a file. I fell foul of this and purchased some which turned out not to be Brass and had to be changed.

    2. Replace the flimsy wires that connect the posts to the PCB, again nothing fancy, I used some Van Damme 2.5mm square speaker cable.

    3. Replace the caps for the Mid Range, these are the large silver cans, all identical 3.5uf. There are six (wired in parallel to achieve 21uf) and used in series with the mid driver in the circuit, there is also a single unit used parallel across the circuit. Contrary to common belief THESE ARE NOT ELECTROLYTIC CAPACITORS. If they were they would be around 30,000uf total and not 21uf. They are metallised paper in oil and are a form of film cap, so should be replaced with similar. I chose to use Ansar Supersound Poplyprop Caps. After some experimenting, I found using 3uf of ClarityCap ESA as part of the 21uf total, gave a slightly fuller, richer mid range and removed a bit of grain, but the difference is small, don't expect a huge difference. Do not use electrolytics to replace these caps, it will seriously degrade the sound quality.

    4. Replace the two electrolytic caps in the Bass circuit (94uf total) with similar, I chose to use a pair of 47uf Mundorf E-Cap bypolar electrolytics. Do not be tempted to use PP film caps here, they have a much lower ESR value and will change the characteristics of the circuit.

    5. Replace the film cap (2.7uf) used in series with the Tweeter, use a high quality film cap here, I used a Mundorf Supreme.

    Notes:

    A). The level controls need to be in the circuit, if you bypass or remove these, you will have to alter the design accordingly to compensate. Don't ask me how, as I didn't measure the L-Pads, just leave them in circuit and you will be fine.

    B). I spent time measuring and matching the bundles of caps to get the desired values, you can probably see the true value scribbled on the side of some in the picture.
    .
    Edit: If you want the last drop out of the speakers, you can bypass the 2.7uF series cap for the Tweeter and the 21uF bunch in series with the Mid Range with a 0.01uF Vishay MKP1837. I'm not a big fan of bypassing and not had much success with it in the past, but it does seem to work in this configuration, taking the last bit of grain out of the Mundorf Supreme on the Tweeter and opening the sound stage up in the Mid Range. Wouldn't have bet money that such a tiny cap would have made any difference, but my ears are telling me otherwise.

    That's it, nothing more complicated is required, the results are superb and without altering the character of the speakers. I'm going to spend some time enjoying mine again. If only they went 15Hz deeper in the bass! ah well, that would make them just about perfect in my eyes and nothing in this game is quite that.
    Last edited by Qwin; 06-01-2018 at 20:58. Reason: extra word removed
    Ken

    http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/
    DIY Technics/ProJect based Turntable + Terminator linear tracker + AT 33PTG II / AQVOX Phono 2 CI / Pro-Ject Pre Box RS / ESP Active X-Over / Nakamichi AVP1 Power / Modified semi-active Yamaha NS1000M Speakers / Stello CDT100 Transport / NAD M51 DAC.

  4. #254
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

    Posts: 43,899
    I'm Grant.

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    Good overview and summary. Worth reading by anyone with an interest on these speakers
    Regards,
    Grant ....

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: democracy simply-doesn't-work
    .... ..... ...... ...... ................... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
    OPPO BDP-103D DARBEE - JBE SERIES 3/M55E/EMOTIVA XPS1 - TWIN PRO MONOBLOCK AMPLIFIERS - XIANG SHENG DAC\PRE\HEADPHONE AMP - TWIN AVANTREE OASIS CLASS 1 BLUETOOTHS - AUDIO TECHNICA ATH-MSR7 & OPPO PM-3 PLANAR HEADPHONES - WIN10 JRIVER24, DEEZER HiFi - SMSL M6 MINIDAC - RPI/AUDIOPHONICS - FULL RANGE TWIN TELEFUNKEN/Q ACOUSTIC BT3/CANTON SUB - P.INSPIRED MAINS REGENERATED.

  5. #255
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Durham - UK

    Posts: 1,437
    I'm Ken.

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    Thanks Grant, I thought putting it all together in a simple, straightforward form would be useful to folk.

    I had to stamp on the miss-information that the big silver caps are electrolytics, as they are not.
    I keep seeing this repeated, even Troels Grevesen got this wrong when he did a crossover upgrade for the NS-1000m on his site.
    Ken

    http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/
    DIY Technics/ProJect based Turntable + Terminator linear tracker + AT 33PTG II / AQVOX Phono 2 CI / Pro-Ject Pre Box RS / ESP Active X-Over / Nakamichi AVP1 Power / Modified semi-active Yamaha NS1000M Speakers / Stello CDT100 Transport / NAD M51 DAC.

  6. #256
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 3,687
    I'm James.

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    Excellent summary and nice to hear from you Ken I remember you starting this project ages ago. I am sure you suggestions will be a useful resource for anyone maintaining the NS-1000m.

    Funnily enough I have been in correspondence with Spendor today regarding something very similar as my speakers are 30 years old and I thought I would investigate wether they needed new caps or tweeters as mine contain ferro fluid. Spend or said don't touch anything unless it's broke and the speakers are finely calibrated so changing anything will make them sound different. The caps are on a passive crossover so they felt they should still be ok. I think I will leave well alone as they sound fine and doing anything may bugger up the sound. I will only start surgery if they actually fail in some area!

  7. #257
    Join Date: Sep 2014

    Location: brighton uk.

    Posts: 3,219
    I'm jamie.

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    its very easy to get sucked into replacing caps after reading countless forum posts from people who have stated they heard an amazing difference when done,the night and day comment may also appear.
    the truth is,well for me anyway,ive never heard a great difference,i didnt with ditton 44's,i didn't with ditton 66's either,both had a full re cap and internal wire change.

    with this in mind im not touching my ns1000's especially as the caps are glued in.
    My System/ Yamaha NS1000M speakers ,Pioneer PLC-590 turntable,Pioneer PA-5000,Alphason HR-100S-MCS,Zeta tonearms,Denon 103SA Cartridge's,Denon HA-500 Head Amp, John Wood KT88 Valve Amp,Sony 700ES Amp,Sony X555ES CD Player, Nakamichi ca5 pre amp ,

  8. #258
    Join Date: Mar 2010

    Location: Sheffield

    Posts: 2,574
    I'm Simon.

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    Stock lytics in the xo for the ns1000m has esr of just over 1ohm.
    Kuzma Stabi/S 12", (LP12-bastard) DC motor and optical tacho psu, Benz LP, Paradise (phonostage). MB-Pro, Brooklyn dac and psu, Bruno Putzeys balanced pre, mod86p dual mono amps, Yamaha NS1000m

  9. #259
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Durham - UK

    Posts: 1,437
    I'm Ken.

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    If it ain't broke don't fix it!

    Leave well alone if they are sounding good James.

    I've been beavering away, doing all kinds of stuff, but mainly getting to grips with my measuring gear and DSP software. I've always found the difference between a tweeter being wired normal/reversed to be quite subtle and not always obvious. Stick a mic on the job and whoooa! where did that canyon in the response come from? All good stuff and adding to my knowledge as I go.

    I really am enjoying the NS-1000m in stock passive form, especially with vinyl, no multi-channel active set up and digital conversion to get in the way, just a simple two channel set up.

    Do I miss the extra bass depth and dynamics with my active set up, yes. Do I miss the extra zing and shimmer the ribbon tweeter gives, yes. Do I enjoy the music any more with it, probably not. Hey ho.
    Ken

    http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/
    DIY Technics/ProJect based Turntable + Terminator linear tracker + AT 33PTG II / AQVOX Phono 2 CI / Pro-Ject Pre Box RS / ESP Active X-Over / Nakamichi AVP1 Power / Modified semi-active Yamaha NS1000M Speakers / Stello CDT100 Transport / NAD M51 DAC.

  10. #260
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Durham - UK

    Posts: 1,437
    I'm Ken.

    Default

    "with this in mind im not touching my ns1000's especially as the caps are glued in."

    Yes, I had to rip mine apart removing them, that's how I first discovered they were not electrolytics.
    Ken

    http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/
    DIY Technics/ProJect based Turntable + Terminator linear tracker + AT 33PTG II / AQVOX Phono 2 CI / Pro-Ject Pre Box RS / ESP Active X-Over / Nakamichi AVP1 Power / Modified semi-active Yamaha NS1000M Speakers / Stello CDT100 Transport / NAD M51 DAC.

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