Technics SL-1200mk2 vs Linn LP12

[Spectral Morn]

Only crappy powered desktop speakers here but I preferred file 2.

Bassline more prominent, vocal is clearer, the whole thing is more 'together'. File 1 sounds a bit more plinky-plonk in the top with vague bass and muffled vocal.

Then I checked which was which. I'm not surprised. I'm surprised so many thought #1 was better.

Not what I heard at all seems to be a lot of variables re laptop playback here. As your description matches how I heard File 2 though not to the same degree. Weird



Regards Neil

[Macca]

There seems to be a similar difference of opinions on this on Hoffman as well. Some folk reckoned they couldn't hear any difference. Very strange.

One thing it could be down to is that some folk prefer what I would call an exaggerated top end openness and seem prepared to sacrifice pretty much everything else (if they have to) in order to have that because that is what they perceive as the 'better' sound. Purely down to taste in presentation but then it goes on to explain my theory that some folk don't like the SL1200 because it is too neutral sounding. They tend to be not that keen on digital replay for the same reasons.

[Lynster]

Hi Marco, I did say I initially preferred file 1 for all the reasons you say but in particular, the slightly cleaner and more forward highs but after a second and subsequent plays, I really began to appreciate the fuller mids and what I took to be better overall tonal balance and fullness of file 2.

What I didn't say in my previous post is that yes file 2 has some limitations so I was looking past those to other qualities. To me, file 2 was certainly a bit dark and wooly in the base and not as clean so i'd certainly rate it second best technically other than for speed control. Just goes to show that we probably all focus on slightly different things as being most important to our personal listening requirements.

Historically, when I first got my new 1210, I was very pleasantly surprised by how much better it sounded than I was expecting so perhaps that is where I was coming from in eventually preferring file 2. I judged the fundamentals as being extremely sound. No I didn't like the dark constrained stage or in particular, how flat and 2D the soundstage was - fine width wise but hopeless for depth. Can't really hear that limitation on file 2 but it's likely there. In fact the flat soundstage was my number 1 dislike of the stock TT and my primary reason for doing something about it. A combination of the MN bearing, rewired tone arm (van den Hul MCS 150M silver) and KAB damper transformed the stock item to make it the opposite of dark and constrained. Other subsequent mods have simply taken it further along this path.

[Mr Kipling]

Downloading the first file yesterday with my mobile was a bit of a faff, and it wouldn't play when I tried. Had another go today and got both files and a player that played them.

Initially I preferred the Linn as it was cleaner, clearer, had better leading edges sounding more plinky, rinky-dinky, and live. After a few listens I preferred the Technics which was more solid and stable, better resolved in the bass with the piano having more plonk. It did, however, sound more muddy and less open and transparent compared to the Linn file. Surprised some heard no differences.

But what does it say? The differences heard could be wiped out with a change of cartridge to one deck or altering loading or what was used for support and loads more…

[Canetoad]

It as obvious to me that file 2 was the Technics. I remember that sound very well from when I first bought mine. Just replacing the mat removes some of the ploddy bass and midrange in my opinion.

I thought file 1 sounded pretty good listening on the laptop with headphones. I've not heard an LP12 before so I'm no expert but it did sound quite good.

I'd like to hear a modified Techie against the LP12. That would be interesting.

[stairpost]

I thought they both sounded nice enough for me to enjoy listening to, although file1 did have a better sound around the high end.

I am very intrigued by the idea of how much variation there is in our individual hearing, we can't all hear, process and differentiate quality across the frequency range in the same way, can we?

[twotone]

I prefered file one and thought that was the Technics cause it sounds like my own deck, didn't like file two much, too closed in for me too veiled too much bass.

Tony

[Stratmangler]

I had a play with the ABX thing first, and got these results

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.3
2014/10/05 19:30:27

File A: C:\Users\Chris W7\Downloads\Chant of the Soil - 1.wav
File B: C:\Users\Chris W7\Downloads\Chant of the Soil - 2.wav

19:30:27 : Test started.
19:33:03 : 01/01 50.0%
19:33:44 : 02/02 25.0%
19:34:24 : 03/03 12.5%
19:34:51 : 04/04 6.3%
19:35:25 : 05/05 3.1%
19:36:02 : 06/06 1.6%
19:36:38 : 07/07 0.8%
19:37:37 : 08/08 0.4%
19:37:57 : 09/09 0.2%
19:38:38 : 09/10 1.1%
19:38:50 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 9/10 (1.1%)

The test results prove that I can successfully track which file is which in a blind test, but little else other than that.
My failure on the 10th attempt could be put down to losing the will to live

So now I played the files right through, and on initial hearing I preferred file 1, as it had more air and space to the sound.
Subsequent listenings have me very definitely in the file 2 camp. The bass and piano have pitch stability that file 1 lacks. The drumming on track 2 has greater drive and direction, and the emphasis the drummer makes with pressed rolls comes to the fore.

Overall I'd say the Technics acquits itself very well, especially considering the fact that it's a stock deck, and the LP12 has had money thrown at it in upgrades.

[Mr Kipling]

Not having read the thread I wasn't aware different cartridges were used (Klyde & Troika rebuilt by Goldring). The individual who did the comparison was pretty confident there was no real difference in sound between them.

Pretty amazing the two sound so close given the differences in cost.

[Marco]

Hi Lynton,

To me, file 2 was certainly a bit dark and wooly in the base and not as clean so i'd certainly rate it second best technically other than for speed control.

I also agree - and that is *fundamentally* how a stock Techy sounds, although I can understand why some would prefer it to the recording of the LP12. At the end of the day, however, all this stuff is very subjective, and there are clearly audible limitations in both T/Ts.

For me, though, the LP12 in question gets more that’s fundamentally important right than the stock Technics does.

No I didn't like the dark constrained stage or in particular, how flat and 2D the soundstage was - fine width wise but hopeless for depth…. In fact the flat soundstage was my number 1 dislike of the stock TT and my primary reason for doing something about it.

Again spot on - that is precisely (and indisputably) the failings of a stock Technics SL-1200/1210.

A combination of the MN bearing, rewired tone arm (van den Hul MCS 150M silver) and KAB damper transformed the stock item to make it the opposite of dark and constrained.

Let’s not also forget the huge part removing that big lump of metal from underneath the platter (the stock PSU), and housing it inside an external box and/or fitting another high-quality item from an outside manufacturer (as well as losing the rubber mat and stock feet), plays in eradicating those "dark and constrained" sonic characteristics.

In any case, absolutely - mine too sounds the complete opposite of such, and excels in most important areas, although I’d still argue that something like a Michell Gyrodec shows up ANY SL-1200/1210, highly-modified or otherwise, in terms of filigree detailing/delicacy, ultimate high-frequency extension, along with soundstage width and depth.

One simply has to remember that everything in audio is a compromise, including T/Ts, and there’s no doubt that the best belt-drive T/Ts outperform their direct-drive counterparts in certain areas. However, a well-sorted D/D, in my experience, has the best balance of compromises, in order to make recorded music sound most like the real thing - and most of all fun

Marco.