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Thread: Renovation of Celestion 66 Studio Monitors

  1. #111
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    It's called 'progess', Martin!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  2. #112
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,779
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    It's called 'progess', Martin!

    Marco.
    My point was the boomy bass reports are probably down to something other than having the speakers plonked on the floor. Amplification most likely, trying to drive them with some weedy, underpowered thing.

    I mean think about it, did they have this conversation back at Celestion in '73?

    'How are those new flagship studio monitors coming along?'

    'Okay but they are a bit boomy in the bass'

    'Screw it lets ship them out anyway'

    Which is not to say that you can't improve performance with the mana stands or whatever but I am sure I could plonk them straight down on my nice flat concrete floor and have no issues with boomy bass.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  3. #113
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Yeah sure, however, the bass is nowhere near as tight and controlled, with the speakers just plonked on the floor, as it is with the Mana supports in situ - and that's regardless of what amplifier is being used.

    Your point about amplifiers, however, is valid. I find that people's (bad) impressions of a lot of inherently excellent vintage gear, when they heard it first time round, is simply because of the original context they heard it in, perhaps with some 'less than excellent' partnering equipment of the day. Let's face it, as much as there are some vintage gems out there, there's also plenty of dross!

    However, when said (inherently excellent) vintage gear is listened to in a modern context, with the use of proper stands, high-quality cables and better equipment, it can *really* shine!!

    That's precisely why I always advocate the policy of combining the best of old and new technology, when building a system, as the sonic result can often be phenomenal, and achieved at far less cost overall than simply buying new....



    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  4. #114
    Join Date: Nov 2013

    Location: Yorkshire

    Posts: 4,243
    I'm Andr'e.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post

    Your point about amplifiers, however, is valid. I find that people's (bad) impressions of a lot of inherently excellent vintage gear, when they heard it first time round, is simply because of the original context they heard it in, perhaps with some 'less than excellent' partnering equipment of the day. Let's face it, as much as there are some vintage gems out there, there's also plenty of dross!
    A lot of peoples bad impression of vintage gear is mainly due to ignorance.

    You cannot just buy a vintage amp plug it in & expect glorious sound, it will nearly always sound poor due to the age of the components inside, the quality of the components inside & ultimately it has not been serviced for donkies years. but what do people do? yep they write i off as crap. Exacatly the same with vintage speakers. Bad crossover boards = bad sounding speakers.

    Bit of advice for someone opting for vintage gear. It needs sorting out, in in some cases the cost can be more than a new modern amp. So if you plan buying old gear just because it may seem cheap please think twice.

  5. #115
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    A lot of peoples bad impression of vintage gear is mainly due to ignorance.

    You cannot just buy a vintage amp plug it in & expect glorious sound, it will nearly always sound poor due to the age of the components inside, the quality of the components inside & ultimately it has not been serviced for donkies years. but what do people do? yep they write i off as crap. Exacatly the same with vintage speakers. Bad crossover boards = bad sounding speakers.

    Bit of advice for someone opting for vintage gear. It needs sorting out, in in some cases the cost can be more than a new modern amp. So if you plan buying old gear just because it may seem cheap please think twice.
    That's also valid and very good advice!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  6. #116
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,779
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post

    Bit of advice for someone opting for vintage gear. It needs sorting out, in in some cases the cost can be more than a new modern amp. So if you plan buying old gear just because it may seem cheap please think twice.
    I don't think it will always need sorting out but most of the time that is probably true. If you want a vintage amp you might as well want it because it is vintage and not because it is going to be cheaper and/or better than a modern one.

    But with vintage speakers it is a bit different because truly capable speakers, bought new, cost big money nowadays whereas you can pick up truly capable vintage speakers in perfect working order for a fraction of the money and even if you do need to re-do the crossovers it will still be fantastic value for money by comparison.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  7. #117
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Leaving Andre's point aside, however, what I'm saying is slightly different (notwithstanding the fact that my 66s are totally stock, have been that way since I bought them 4 years ago, and sound superb with no crossover upgrades)...

    My point is that, regardless of the very valid point Andre has made, 'back in the day' when all this stuff was being listened to, some of it was inherently excellent (such as 66s in question, and pretty much the whole of the Celestion range in those days), but some of it was also less than excellent, or indeed crap! The fact is, crap hi-fi existed back then then just as it does now.

    Now, back in the 1970s, if you're trying to assess a pair of fundamentally excellent speakers with a less than excellent (or crap) amplifier and/or similar turntable upstream, all hooked up with shit bell-wire, and speakers just plonked on the floor, how are you ever going to appreciate just how good those speakers are.....?

    Fast-forward to today, and partner those fundamentally excellent speakers with the best modern equipment, stands and cables, and WOW, all of a sudden you're able to hear the FULL potential of what those speakers are capable of!! And that's exactly what's happening with the 66s in my system, or in anyone else's where the best of old and new technology has been combined to superb effect - simples

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  8. #118
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 6,772
    I'm James.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Leaving Andre's point aside, however, what I'm saying is slightly different (notwithstanding the fact that my 66s are totally stock, have been that way since I bought them 4 years ago, and sound superb with no crossover upgrades)...

    My point is that, regardless of the very valid point Andre has made, 'back in the day' when all this stuff was being listened to, some of it was inherently excellent (such as 66s in question, and pretty much the whole of the Celestion range back then), but some of it was also less than excellent, or indeed crap.

    Now, back in the 1970s, if you're trying to assess a pair of fundamentally excellent speakers with a less than excellent (or crap) amplifier and/or similar turntable upstream, how are you ever going to appreciate just how good those speakers are.....?

    Fast-forward to today, and partner those fundamentally excellent speakers with the best modern equipment, stands and cables, and WOW, all of a sudden you're able to hear the full potential of what those speakers are capable of!! And that's exactly what's happening with the 66s in my system, or in anyone else's where the best of old and new technology has been combined to superb effect

    Marco.
    I know I am wandering a tad off topic but although I have not heard the Celestion 66's I can appreciate exactly where you are coming from Marco regarding old speakers and new amplification. My Spendor SP2's are fairly ancient, built in 1986 and were good back then when I bought them but since upgrading my system amplification and front end they have had a new lease of life and sound better than I can ever remember.

    Problem I have now is thinking of a slightly larger pair of speakers for future needs, many of the Brave new world designs do not float my boat. Hence very interested in posts on AOS regarding "vintage" speakers
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

  9. #119
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,779
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Now, back in the 1970s, if you're trying to assess a pair of fundamentally excellent speakers with a less than excellent (or crap) amplifier and/or similar turntable upstream, all hooked up with shit bell-wire, and speakers just plonked on the floor, how are you ever going to appreciate just how good those speakers are.....?

    .
    Except the 66 (or your Lockwoods for that matter) have always been highly rated, from when they were new models right up until now, 40 years on (more for the Lockies). It's not like we are just re-discovering these things after years of them being ignored as 'old crap'.

    And don't forget they were designed and developed plonked on the floor with 'shit bellwire' cables. But yes, we can improve on this with more 'modern' thinking re cables and supports, I don't disagree for a second.

    Really it is the flat earth outlook that marginalised these older designs to the point were only the true cognoscenti appreciated them. Small 2 way speakers with no bass so they sound 'fast' driven by expensive but low powered amps became 'the way to go' from the late eighties onwards, at least as far as the mainstream was concerned. A totally different presentation of the sound that led folk to believe the old way of doing speakers was inferior when IMO it was far superior.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  10. #120
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Hi Jim,

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    I know I am wandering a tad off topic but although I have not heard the Celestion 66's I can appreciate exactly where you are coming from Marco regarding old speakers and new amplification. My Spendor SP2's are fairly ancient, built in 1986 and were good back then when I bought them but since upgrading my system amplification and front end they have had a new lease of life and sound better than I can ever remember.
    So what does that tell you? That your SP2s are inherently excellent! If they weren't, they wouldn't be capable of revealing the sonic benefits of the superior kit upstream...

    That's why one should never form rigidly held opinions about any vintage equipment, listened to 'back in the day', until one has assessed it in a modern (more optimised) context. DSJR, bless him, has a bad habit of doing that. No offence meant, Dave, but you know where I'm coming from... All I need to say is 'Goldring G800' or 'Shure M3D'!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


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