Discoveries . . hell yeah!

[sastusbulbas]

Hi guys,

Very perceptive of you, says a lot about one's persona the way they reply LOLAM.

Take a look again, see the question marks, the used to and such. Maybe I did say the wrong thing but was unaware of any definitive statement.

As for me talking tat of different cheaper materials, well maybe? Who knows? Thing is it was in plenty of early DIY articles and HiFi magazines, hell even Spica did such with their speakers (and I saw teh DIY stuff before Spica's arrival), not to mention as I said RA using such material, and NHT with little strips just to name a couple.

I could probably dig into my hiFi magazines, say 1988 upward to find more detail, but the FACT is, the IDEA is not new regardless of your superiority and knowledge. It has been done before.

PS carpet underlay used to be pretty well made and not synthetic.

As for the quote,
People copy what I do all the time and then say hey I did this on the cheap, look how cleaver I am....
Jeez!, plenty of people doing DIY and trying different methods get just as good results on the cheap, particularly in comparison to some of the overpriced hype and FOO that's been spouted out over the years with a little screen printing. Maybe a little more respect for people with less income would be nice, after all many manufacturers made a mint from British audio's cottage industry, and many good ideas were born from it.
What you both could have done is answer in a little more positive manner regarding the product in question, thereby increasing the trust and understanding of the products nature.

Personally I have no idea how good this product is, but I see nothing wrong with discussing how similar products and design has been used in the past, nor do I believe it wrong to mention DIY as an alternative for those with little income if they want an idea of what can be achieved.

During the early 90's I myself used reasonable sized felt squares from DIY stores, they were designed for furniture and had sticky backs, and were just the right thickness and workable with a craft knife for use with dome tweeters, I used them for fitting to the open baffle on Nightingale tweeter sections, they benefited from having around 10mm thickness of felt across the complete tweeter baffle which sat next to the midrange baffle on top of the speaker. A 1" run on top of the bass cab in front of the mid and treble baffles also seemed worthwhile.

You can still buy such stuff, I find it useful for old speakers with dome tweeters which have large areas of bare metal. Such as Coles and Kef T27 for instance, (I also have done the LS3/A type of felt around the driver thing with speakers)

Maybe the materials are not bespoke virgin wool imported from Argentina and only handled by virgins, but I have now decided that it is FOO that your material is superior unless you can provide other examples of inferior material which showed no benefit. (Only joking!)

The reason I asked about it being available in sheets was for all intent due to using Kef R107 speakers 105.4 and Rogers Studio and Linn Kan, but no doubt these old legacy things are shit anyway and your advice will be to burn em and fuck off.

Steve

Edit, Acoustic Research too and also with success LOL

[Mike]

eh?

Oh!... I kind of geddit... but!

[Slatedeck]

Steve, I think you missed the point?

There is nothing wrong with DIY that's all I am but stretched a little bit further. The point I was trying to make was that unless you spend a lot of time in research and development you will never know how it compares to other materials.

Manufacturers tend to do this at great costs most of the time.

Then Billy Joe comes along, cuts up the first piece of, wood, metal, felt, wool heck even slate, that crosses his path, fashions it into something that resembles his first inspiration and then yells "hey guys, look what I did" along with "and it only cost me a dime"
Quite often followed by "it's shite, don't work" and all the other comments that usually compliment such situations.
If it does work, then that's great as that is all that counts.
Isn't it?

If you want to knock someone for their efforts, please have the decency to be able to prove that you can do better and not tout off hearsay that you have read/heard from someone else.

I suppose I have opened up a can of worms now, simply put I think you could have worded your original post a little better.

Darren

[Mike]

Manufacturers tend to do this at great costs most of the time.

AND!... pass this cost onto the customer!

[Slatedeck]

Yes,

But only by doing it this way do all the wonderful toys exist.

Can't have it both ways can you.....

[Mike]

Can't have it both ways can you.....

Nope!... tis the way it goes!

[sastusbulbas]

Steve, I think you missed the point?

There is nothing wrong with DIY that's all I am but stretched a little bit further. The point I was trying to make was that unless you spend a lot of time in research and development you will never know how it compares to other materials.

Manufacturers tend to do this at great costs most of the time.

Then Billy Joe comes along, cuts up the first piece of, wood, metal, felt, wool heck even slate, that crosses his path, fashions it into something that resembles his first inspiration and then yells "hey guys, look what I did" along with "and it only cost me a dime"
Quite often followed by "it's shite, don't work" and all the other comments that usually compliment such situations.
If it does work, then that's great as that is all that counts.
Isn't it?

If you want to knock someone for their efforts, please have the decency to be able to prove that you can do better and not tout off hearsay that you have read/heard from someone else.

I suppose I have opened up a can of worms now, simply put I think you could have worded your original post a little better.

Darren

No Darren, you missed the point.
And your above opinion seems to be what you hit my OP with.

I originally asked questions regarding the item and it's similarity to ideas from the 80's and 90's.

I mentioned a few things and asked questions, its easy to read.

The FACT is that many established speaker companies have done similar things! What is original about this product?

The FACT is that during the early years such methods were used in DIY and with trial and error of different materials many ended up with a preference! What is original about this products development?

The FACT is the products value for money is open to question, nothing wrong with questioning any items value! What is this products material cost? And is a magazine review sufficient reason to raise this value?

In what way is this wool better or different than other wool? Is it different in consistency and construction to RA's product? Am I to believe that if you took two identical rings of felt, or two identical square baffles of felt, one made by RA and one from the above, that the measured difference and difference to the listener 3m away will be proven to be so invariable and consistent with a large variable of speakers to prove it's effectiveness in improving a speakers performance? And hence it's value?

The FACT is that many will be happy with results from cheaper materials, and many reading this will probably think the same, I voiced my own opinion of possibility here, not much else.

You and someone else decided the sort of person I am and labelled accordingly, my original posting was not worded in such a manner as to make me questionable, but if it could have been worded better and so could have the dismissing of me and my views been more constructive? Where would we have ended up?

I was unaware of myself knocking someone else's efforts, NOR do I feel I need to have the decency to prove I can do "better" just because I mentioned that many DIY fans and established manufacturers have tried similar methods and ideas in the past with various success and satisfaction.
These guys have already proved they can do well, I see this product as nothing more than another one of that type, which may well be better and do better.
Russ Andrews re-attempted it, with good reviews and good initial response.

OK as for an example, I think RAAL and Spica proved they could do this well, so far al I see is someone coming along and taking a known and established idea and again bringing it to the attention of a newer audience and attempting to make money from it, and I am suspicious of another FOO material that is apparently better than the competitions.

I am well aware that a larger company could easily construct the same material in bulk for far less, and I put NO extra value on it for being a small production batch product. Why? Because other materials synthetic or not WILL be able to replicate the same performance, and bulk manufacture will be jsut as if not more accurate with the right tooling.

When these are made to measure with specific frequency absorbency and panel dampening specific to the driver/baffle/room maybe I will be even more interested I guess.

But so far all I see is expensive "FELT" to aid diffraction and give a different sound for the buyers to either think is better or worse.

HiFi magazines also reviewed such product in the early years of conception, so don't belittle me or make judgement due to my opinion after reading a short history of a bespoke new product on AOS which looks no different and offers the same sort of benefit as product and ideas I witnessed almost 20 years ago.

So back to my original post!

To quote,
Sorry,
Note; This was an apology in advance of my post, due to it's nature probably not being clear, and being misconstrued.

But have these not been round the block? An old idea resurrected? I am pretty sure such product/practice/ideas was available during the 80's and 90's?
Note; This part was clearly a question which I was hoping the OP would address politely showing in which way his product had been developed and whether or not he had been aware of other manufacturers efforts.

Not too dissimilar to Russ Andrews Focus rings either? In fact pretty much an old cheap DIY method which has been around for many years but which seems to have been forgotten probably due to less people seeing thick felt in shops these days.
Note; The first part a genuine question, the second I can agree seems unfair but in my opinion a reasonable assessment with regard to the use of felt in such applications since the 70's.

What do you charge for a large sticky back sheet for the customer to cut and fit himself?
Note; A Genuine question, and more practical for many enthusiasts.

I am sure such stuff used to be available form art and craft shops, and maybe even furniture craft stores, various thickness's and ranging from synthetic to real wool.
Note; Again a genuine opinion, and not as far as I am aware pointing to my knowledge of said stuff, various felts of various thickness were at one time available to purchase from various sources in Britain!

Early experiments used to involve heavy carpet underlay, yes such a heavy wool felt underlay did exist once in the UK, though sadly NOT at $60 for a few square inches.
Note; Again it is documented in early audio printing that heavy felt underlay made of wool was suitable for DIY with speakers, I see the price point as humour, as back then $60 would underlay a lot of floor/speaker LOL.

Wool underlay used to be so practical for loudspeaker DIY, anyone know where to get it these days?
Note; A question, it would be fun to try similar method again with such a material.

The practice used to be to basically cut a blanket out of the stuff with holes for the drivers, some even doubled it up, others fitted it behind grills, and even cut whole sheets to fit the baffle. Another way was to use cork tile with a felt layer bonded on top, again covering the baffle, or a good few inches around the drivers.
Note; I was only mentioning the sort of practice that was common among DIY enthusiasts in the past. NOT making up shit.

You could probably patent the cup idea too, where you take a few mm of plastic cup rim and fix it around a dome tweeter for added effect!
Note; Tongue in cheek, though this method was taken from a DIY letter in an audio publication which was replied to by Jimmy Hughes, as it made a noticeable difference to even his speakers, one which he though worth printing.



Steve

[dmckean]

Dmckean- Yep. I looked at the site. The PMC's have flat baffles and right angles. Sure will. Sastusbulbas suggests that what I make can be made easily enough DIY. The wool I use is very high grade sheep's wool imported from Argentina which I buy by the linear yard, not a synthetic product like what is available in fabric and hardward stores. I do this for its absorption qualities. Any audio product that is hand and machine made and does what it claims to do ought to cost at least $60.00. I'm playing around with a blog and a Youtube video that will explain an awful lot to guys who can't imagine a value to what I make and charge for it. I'm used to Sastasbulbas suppositions. I get them all the time. Mostly from guys our age.

Jim,

My order just went through, I included an extra $7.00 so you can dye them black for me.

Thanks,

Dave

[sastusbulbas]

Dmckean- Yep. I looked at the site. The PMC's have flat baffles and right angles. Sure will. Sastusbulbas suggests that what I make can be made easily enough DIY. The wool I use is very high grade sheep's wool imported from Argentina which I buy by the linear yard, not a synthetic product like what is available in fabric and hardward stores. I do this for its absorption qualities. Any audio product that is hand and machine made and does what it claims to do ought to cost at least $60.00. I'm playing around with a blog and a Youtube video that will explain an awful lot to guys who can't imagine a value to what I make and charge for it. I'm used to Sastasbulbas suppositions. I get them all the time. Mostly from guys our age.

Hey Jim,

Read my OP properly, I only suggest you can make similar, not YOUR exact product.

Any audio product that is hand and machine made? Pretty vague and only opinion Jim. It is quite simply about profit.

A youtube video to explain to guys who "cant imagine" Sigh.

Used to MY suppositions? Have there been many from me?

Guy's our age? What's this meant to imply? Do you know my age? and what does it matter?

Jim, so far I have seen you "seemingly" take an old idea and add FOO to it to make even more profit from what at the end of the day is nothing more than felt which will make something sound DIFFERENT if applied in the correct manner. (IE I am Pretty sure PMC have a good idea of what they are doing DUH)

Your initial response to my post, it's queries and points, clearly indicates the intent and application of this product, and your state of mind with regard to the matter at hand. Yer a radge! LOL

I am pretty sure if you trawled through enough old DIY audio articles and audio magazines you could find another few obscure practises that you could develop and sell to the general fora members and make even more money.

Then again this could all be spite due to being belittled for asking the wrong questions. I don't mind using felt in such applications, but after looking at a few of your posts and your response to me I think you are doing nothing but taking the piss.

I guess they breed better sheep over in Argentina. How did you find that the Argentinian wool compared to Scottish or New Zealand Lamb, did you try compressed ham?



Edit, Take a note of your initial heading, within a section titled "Strokes of Genius" , you put "Discoveries... Hell Yeah!" Aye! but no discovered by you ya copy cat!

[jimdgoulding]

Good deal, Dave. I'll get them on the bench this week. Just one thing, I need to know the width of your speaker cabinets unless all the current models featured on the site are the same. On second thought, tell me your particular model number, too. Thanks.