Mahler's 5th - an Apology.

[DaveK]

Hi y'all,
This is by way of being a belated apology to one of my early responders on this forum who recommended Mahler's 5th Symphony to me, at which point I made a rather disparaging response. As I type this I am listening, for the third consecutive time, to the Adagietto. Now this is music that I can just lay back, with eyes closed, and let the music, for it really is MUSIC, just wash over me. Obviously (hopefully), it is not the first time that I have heard it, but it is the first time that I have looked to see what it is that I am listening to. BEAUTIFUL, there is just no other word for it !!!
Questions: -
1) Is the rest of it as beautiful as the Adagietto?
2) Do you know any more like that?

Cheers,

[DSJR]

I first heard this beautiful music back in the seventies and the Adagietto via Herbert von Karajan's recording from 1974. The score calls for the tempo to be slow and later, even slower!!! Many conductors speed up instead and although I like much of Solti's Mahler cycle, Herby did this one for me, along with Tennstedt's interpretation in the early eighties. In the right mood, time stands still for fifteen minutes or so... The whole thing is wonderful if you can give it time.................

If you like the above, then try the Ruckert Lieder. "Ich Bin de Welt" has me in tears almost every time I hear it and the Christa Ludwig/Herbie interpretation on DG from 1974 (the LP [not the CD] translation of the words are what I want at my funeral) is magical. I've also heard Dietrich Fischer Discau's interpretation and this gives a wonderful rendering from a man's point of view.

So many years have passed since these recordings were made I have no idea if the more recent performances are any better. But try the above and I don't think you'll be disappoined...


P.S. herbie did have a habit of getting behind the mixing desk and subtly "mixing" certain phrases and parts. After his death, a few of the better performances were re-mixed with far more atmosphere and these sound much better and more "3-D" on the CD medium.

Hope the above snippet is helpful to you. I love much of Mahler's work, although his hero Wagner leaves me totally cold for some reason.



".......I have renounced the worldy bustle and live in peace at a quiet place. I live alone in this, my heaven. In my love, in my songs............"

[DaveK]

Hi Dave,
Thanks for that - just a quick response due to lousy headache.
I am a fan of Herbie (as you call him) - his version of Tchaikovsky's is the best I've heard so far (am collecting different versions ).
Tennstedt I am not aware of - I'll look out for him.
Ruckert Lieder. "Ich Bin de Welt" has me in tears almost every time I hear it - sounds like my sort of music - I'll look out for that too - dependant on what sort of mood I'm in at the time, instrumental versions of Londonderry Aire can sometimes have the same effect on me - soppy ain't I !!
Snippet was very helpful - also agree with you about Wagner in general, with the possible exception of Valkyries - very dramatic !!!
Cheers,

[Barry]

Hi Dave

My version is by Solti with the Chicargo Symphony Orchestra (Decca 414 321-2). Mahler is not in my 'top 10', so I have no idea if this recording is considered to be a good reading and performance.

Your post has caused me to pull it out to play. I have not played it in a while, will do so tomorrow evening.

Regards

[DSJR]

Solti was marvellous on the more "robust" Mahler symphonies like the 6th, 8th and 4th I understand. The recording of the 8th suffers with the Decca "tree" mic system causing all sorts of phase distortion and so it sounds confused at the dramatic ending.

Interesting comments on Solti's 4th - my mastering engineer friend played me the original LP set from 1964 - very rich and dull balance. When he came to master the CD set, he got the original tapes from the store - Decca usually used the original tapes for mastering and there were safety backups in case of disaster. The eq settings for the vinyl cut were written on the boxes and sounded horrid when listened to on the monitors, so he decided to align the playback machine (Studer A80 IIRC) "flat" and the CD as mastered by him is, "As the producer heard it!" he says with total conviction, having compared the master with the CD made from it...

[Barry]

Hi Dave,

Have just played the Mahler 5 and can see what you feel about the Adagietto. This then led me on to listening to the Adagio and Adante markings of other classical works, such as Beethoven 7, Hyden's 100 and 104, Dvorak 9 etc.

At the moment I'm listening to a compilation of Mozart Adagios on Naxos 8.552241. Very soothing.

This one of a series:

Beethoven, Naxos 8.552240
J. S. Bach, Naxos 8.552242
Mahler, Naxos 8.552243
Albinoni, Naxos 8.552244.

Trust this is of interest

Regards

[DSJR]

With Naxos, you either get bloody marvelous or bloody awful, and sadly, I'm not an expert to tell which..

The feelings on tempo have changed over the centuries. In Beethovens time it seemed that tempo should be faster when in the 1930's to the sixties or so, everything was played much slower (huge potential flame issue this so apologies in advance). Until the Dual blew a capacitor at Christmas, I was listening to the Colin Davis Philips recording of Handel's Messiah and couldn't believe how laboured it was. I also have a "Proprius" LP set of this and the whole thing has more "bounce" to the rhythm and feel of the piece. A dreadful way to describe it, but I think you know what I mean by these terms.....

[Barry]

With Naxos, you either get bloody marvelous or bloody awful, and sadly, I'm not an expert to tell which..

The feelings on tempo have changed over the centuries. In Beethovens time it seemed that tempo should be faster when in the 1930's to the sixties or so, everything was played much slower (huge potential flame issue this so apologies in advance). Until the Dual blew a capacitor at Christmas, I was listening to the Colin Davis Philips recording of Handel's Messiah and couldn't believe how laboured it was. I also have a "Proprius" LP set of this and the whole thing has more "bounce" to the rhythm and feel of the piece. A dreadful way to describe it, but I think you know what I mean by these terms.....

Hi Dave,

Yes, you are right in some respects: Naxos do use recordings by largely little-known east-european ensembles. This is not necessarily a bad thing; sometimes they can be better than expected. However the use of less well known musicians is quite often compounded by the less-than-sophisticated recording equipment used. No, we're not talking triode-based electronics here, more like germanium semiconductor technology. Despite all this, the Naxos recordings are not expensive and do provide a cost-effective way of exploring certain classical avenues. My introduction to the works of Eric Satie was via Naxos.

Understand what you are saying about the tempo markings. No, you're not going to get 'flamed', well certainly not from me; I'm not sufficient a musicologist to comment. Suffice it to say that I do collect different interpretations of classical works, and when it come to Beethoven, Klemperer's reading is almost painfully slow. But you are quite right, it wasn't until comparatively recent times that metronome markings were used to clarify what was meant by the traditional Italian terms such as Adagio, Allegro, Presto etc.

Regards

[DaveK]

Hi Dave and Barry,
I started another thread a few days ago asking for opinions on the low price classical CDs currently on offer at HMV in conjunction with Classic FM. To my surprise no one responded - is it approriate to raise the subject again here as I would expect both participarting companies to be keen to put out only high quality discs - any views?
Cheers,

[Barry]

Hi Dave and Barry,
I started another thread a few days ago asking for opinions on the low price classical CDs currently on offer at HMV in conjunction with Classic FM. To my surprise no one responded - is it approriate to raise the subject again here as I would expect both participarting companies to be keen to put out only high quality discs - any views?
Cheers,

Hi Dave,

Yes, I was aware of your post regarding HMV (Greensleeves?) recordings. Unfortunately, I have no direct experience of these.

Sorry, cannot comment........

Regards