New tonearm or MN Bearing?

[ChrisKemp]

I have the Mike New bearing and the OL Silver tonearm which replaced the SME 309. My SL1200 has: Mike New bearing, OL Silver tonearm, Pete Riggle's VTA adjuster, Lyra Delos, Funk Firm platter and mat, Paul Hynes psu and Isonoe feet. I like a dynamic and immediate presentation. I installed the Mike New bearing when I had the SME 309. IMHO, the OL Silver was quite an improvement over the SME 309 and one of the bigger improvements I experienced while going down this path. I'm running this with an EAR 868.

The OL Silver still has the fishing line anti-skate mechanism which doesn't fit under the 1200's dust cover unless you let the cover compress the wand a bit. Having said all of that, I'd probably opt to get the table itself up to my highest intended level before swapping out the arm. I think the arm swap will then really shine or be more apparent. I'm very happy with the combo. If I made any changes, it would be to a better OL arm or TransFi arm.

Sorry to muddy the water.

This is all very helpful info indeed. I really like the looks of the OL Silver and all the great reviews it has gotten, but I just hate that "fishing line". Is your OL Silver the mk3 version. Because on the OL website it looks like there is a new mechanism that has replaced the little rod? Maybe I'll email OL and ask

I must also say that with the upgrades so far, the 1210 is SO much better now. Cleaner and tighter base and much better midrange. I think the synergy between the PSU, the Achromat 1200 with record weight and the Isonoe did that. But I must say that the Isonoe made it all worse until I put the Isonoe feet on sorbotane. Now it sounds great.

The Fluid Damper is on its way from KAB and I should get it by next week. That is also why I wonder if I should keep the original arm for now and get MN Bearing.

In the last five months I have bougt the 1210 with all my so far upgrades, new Riaa with psu, new cartridge pluss a pair of ProAc Response D25 in cherry. They were not cheap So if I buy either a MN Bearing or a Jelco/ Origin Live the other has to wait a long while until my next purchase My wife is wathng me closely

I would like my next upgrade to be really worth while, so to speak.

[twotone]

Hi Chris, I've done most of the suggested upgrades of the more reasonably priced items but I've not done the bearing or platter upgrade and the biggest single upgrade was the arm change with arm board.

I wish that I had done that first, the sound performance with the new (old arm) wasn't subtle it was huge.

The arm I decided on was a mint Micro Seiki MA-202 complete with HS-202 headshell as recommended by Rob and a couple of poster who had gone that route.

I read on one forum, can't recall which now, a poster saying that he had tried the Jelco arm and loved it but when he tried the MS arm he sold the Jelco straight away.

I've never heard the Jelco arm so can't comment on the sound of one on a Technics but the MS arm is fantastic to use, I've been switching carts about all week trying to decide which one to keep and the MS arm makes changing them so easy.

To zero the arm for a particular cart is so easy then dialing in the tracking weight is also so so simple, the MS arm is just a beautifully designed piece of equipment and very elegant it also looks fantastic on the SL1200.

I've no intention of spending any more money on a bearing or platter, I just don't see the point of spending another £1200 or so for what? A marginally better sound?

I would rather spend the money on a good cart and more records.

Tony

[WOStantonCS100]

This is all very helpful info indeed. I really like the looks of the OL Silver and all the great reviews it has gotten, but I just hate that "fishing line". Is your OL Silver the mk3 version. Because on the OL website it looks like there is a new mechanism that has replaced the little rod? Maybe I'll email OL and ask

I must also say that with the upgrades so far, the 1210 is SO much better now. Cleaner and tighter base and much better midrange. I think the synergy between the PSU, the Achromat 1200 with record weight and the Isonoe did that. But I must say that the Isonoe made it all worse until I put the Isonoe feet on sorbotane. Now it sounds great.

The Fluid Damper is on its way from KAB and I should get it by next week. That is also why I wonder if I should keep the original arm for now and get MN Bearing.

In the last five months I have bougt the 1210 with all my so far upgrades, new Riaa with psu, new cartridge pluss a pair of ProAc Response D25 in cherry. They were not cheap So if I buy either a MN Bearing or a Jelco/ Origin Live the other has to wait a long while until my next purchase My wife is wathng me closely

I would like my next upgrade to be really worth while, so to speak.

The MN bearing is not a slight improvement, IMHO. It's pretty huge BUT in a way that is "easy to miss" if you're not paying attention; because, it's not about what the bearing adds, per se, but what it takes away and allows to come through. When the noise floor is dropped resolution and clarity across the frequency spectrum increases. I have, ahem, a few 1200s, and so was able to do a comparison of a 1200 with and without the MN bearing. My ears are so accustomed to what the MN bearing "doesn't" bring to the table that I have even relegated my re-plinthed SL-1500MK2 to a place of lesser importance. I then transferred the Trans-Fi T3 to the 1200 with the MN bearing. The tonearm change was more of a "slap in the face" change (over the stock arm); however, my feeling is that the MN bearing is a pillar upon which a great tonearm/cart combo can really shine. In other words, if the bearing is lowering your resolution, the arm/cart can only go so far. In short, the T3 arm sounds even better on the TT with the MN bearing.

[ChrisKemp]

That is very interesting! It isn't what the bearing adds but what it takes away. I haven't thought about it like that before.

For those of you that got a big improvement of SQ after changing out the original arm; did any of you have it Cardas rewired by KAB. Because that made a huge improvement in my system. That and when I changed out the original stiff headshell cables to Cardas. I have tried to put the old headshell cables back on the Ortofon Rondo Red MC and the sound was clearly suffering. Bass got boomy and the sound was muddy and unclear. Changed back to Cardas headshell cables again and all was back in place.

Put the KAB Fluid Damper on that rewired arm with new headshell cables and the sound is improved again. I have read that with the damper it is like with the MN Bearing. The Fluid Damper does not add anything, but takes away noise, tighten up bass and make blacker background and better room for the midrange. A friend of mine did the Fluid Damper on his MK5G and the improvement in SQ was not small he told me.

My friend and I have written two hifi gurus in Norway asking about the original arm. They said the 1210-arm is pretty good when it is rewired and fluid dampened. The bearings in the Technics arm is of high quality and it can take high quality cartridges, all the way up to Lyra Delos and Ortofon Cadenza Red/ Blue.

I hope that some with experience with KAB rewire + KAB Fluid Damper can say if the improvement with a new arm still is that big? It would be interesting to know if the improvement in SQ after a tonearm change is because of the new tonearm, or is it because the original headshell-/ tonearm cables are of such crappy quality.

[prestonchipfryer]

Well, that completely flies in the face of the results I've obtained with the MN bearing, where I've found it significantly improves the performance of the T/T, notably reducing the 'noisefloor' and making bass deeper and more tuneful (amongst also improving important areas of the musical presentation).

If installed properly and heard through a genuinely transparent and high quality system, the difference between the MN and the stock bearing should NOT be subtle!!



Chris, I'll get to your post properly later

Marco.

Absolutely. The improvement is startling with the MN bearing.

[Oldpinkman]

Chris. Whilst a bearing might contribute subtle but important improvements an arm has the ability to sound obviously different. Your comments about rewiring the standard arm and that arm being "high quality" reflect what seems to be a common simplification of arms that fails to understand how much they earn their name "tonearm". To work without defects with a low compliance moving coil cartridge whether big bucks "high quality" or small bucks " ordinary", the arm needs not to rattle anywhere from the relatively high energy fed to it by the stiff compliance and higher tracking force (good bearings, headshell joint) and not to risk a main system resonance too near the audio frequencies (high enough effective mass). If it has those 2 qualities it will be high enough quality to work without defects with any of those cartridges. It could still sound like a pile of poo, or rather fail to allow the qualities of the cartridge to to be apparent. The quality of wires used will also have some impact, but only to the extent of allowing any signal generated in the the cartridge to be transmitted more faithfully. The wires won't change the signals generated. But arm resonances, primarily often main tube resonances, but also headshell and counterweight resonances will change the signal produced by that cartridge in the first place by affecting some frequencies (TONES) more than others. Hence TONEarm. And to change those resonances you need to change the construction of the components I referred to. If you have an arm with an s shaped metal tube and a detachable headshell it will be mostly similar in that regard to any other s shaped arm of the same materials and construction. There is a well known definition of stupidity which is to keep doing the same thing and expect a different outcome. Good arm design, controlling those resonances, can make a huge difference to an arms sound. Not just "warm" or "bright" but detail gets lost in the frequencies which are affected.

[ChrisKemp]

I understand I have much to learn when it comes to tonearms

So will another S-shaped arm like the Jelco 750D sound just about the same as a standard 12xx arm with fluid damper? A Jelco 750D is in my price range. I could go with the OL Silver, but only if it is alot better than the Jelco.

But who has any experience with the KAB Fluid Damper + rewired Technics arm in here? Will a Jelco 750D be to small of an upgrade? Because if I have to buy a SME 309 or Funk FX1200 to get a real upgrade in SQ then I have to keep what I have now. Just too much money for me.

[Ammonite Audio]

A Jelco SA-750D will give you noticeably better control over the music than the standard arm, which (IME) does tend to get a bit flustered when the music gets more demanding. But that said, I'd go for the MN bearing first, because it addresses the main problem with the stock Technics bearing, eg it has very little structural integrity. In simple words, the Technics bearing can flex, but on top of that, the thin chassis to which it is loosely attached can flex too. When you consider how small are the stylus movements in the groove, clearly you do not want extraneous movement in the platter/bearing/chassis interface. Mike's bearing works so well because not only is it a very good bearing, but also because it is structurally very strong, and imparts strength and integrity to the turntable's chassis (even more so with his base plate). I am no particular fan of the SL-1200/1210, but I did go through these upgrades and can recommend both MN bearing and a better arm, if you like what the deck does and can afford the outlay.

[Oldpinkman]

I understand I have much to learn when it comes to tonearms

So will another S-shaped arm like the Jelco 750D sound just about the same as a standard 12xx arm with fluid damper? A Jelco 750D is in my price range. I could go with the OL Silver, but only if it is alot better than the Jelco.

But who has any experience with the KAB Fluid Damper + rewired Technics arm in here? Will a Jelco 750D be to small of an upgrade? Because if I have to buy a SME 309 or Funk FX1200 to get a real upgrade in SQ then I have to keep what I have now. Just too much money for me.

The Jelco will not be the same as the Technics, as it will not be the same as my Micro Seiki or Linn LV-V. It will just not be as different as the other arms you mention, or say a Linn Ittok, or Mission 774 (particularly the latter). I can't find a resonance plot for it, but I would bet the inheritance it has some substantial peaks on it. Wiring and fluid damping can't affect those (the damping affects the other resonance - the mass/compliance resonance) and would mainly help with cartridges who have a somewhat higher compliance.

your problem, like mine with the cartridges and the R700 speakers, is there is no substitute for hearing them in your own system. Other peoples opinions are I am sure genuine, but I find hard to relate to my own experiences often. There are rarely easy answers. Most of us who are happy with choices we made, will recommend them to others, but there is no substitute for your own experience. The Kef's are a great example - I like them, but I am surprised by some of the review comments I have heard about them, now I have them in my own system. Good luck with arms and bearings! Bear in mind most (but not all) people commenting on the bearing have changed it once, had no opportunity to go back and compare with the original, and will be justifying to themselves having blown £600 or thereabouts.

[CageyH]

I refitted my standard bearing before committing to the Mike New version, and I still have the Mike New version fitted. On it's own it makes a minor difference, but as posted elsewhere on this forum, it gels all the other parts together. The most noticeable difference for me came in the tonearm changes, but I went from a standard arm to an Audio Origami RB251.

If you are looking at an OL Silver, another worth contemplating might be the Audiomods Technics arm?