Placebo-philes

[Spectral Morn]

'placebo'

That word gets my back up from word go. I am frankly sick of people telling me what I can and can't hear and particularly objectavists that use that word 'placebo' as a precursor to other words phrases such as 'expectation bias'. Frankly I find it insulting... the way these opinions are usually expressed.

I would love to know why some folks can hear things and others can't but I suspect sadly this is one of those things that won't ever be solved and articles that claim the truth of a matter, as if their limited 'possibly valid' findings speaks for all and thus can be used/claimed as a universal truth also takes me to the fair.

I know what I can and can't hear but that is all I can say, as I can't climb in others heads and hear what they hear or don't hear.

Anyway I predict a riot with this topic as it always ends up with clear divisions and opposing armies squaring of to each other.


Regards Neil

[Joe]

It's not really a subj/obj thing at all. If I say 'I can hear that X is better than Y' then that's good enough for me. If however I want to persuade or convince others that X is better than Y, then I'll need to demonstrate it to them, preferably so they don't know whether they're listening to X or Y. That's still based on a subjective listening experience.

The objectivist viewpoint would be 'X measures better than Y, therefore it is better, and there's no need to listen to the two to validate that'.

[nat8808]

'placebo'

That word gets my back up from word go. I am frankly sick of people telling me what I can and can't hear and particularly objectavists that use that word 'placebo' as a precursor to other words phrases such as 'expectation bias'. Frankly I find it insulting... the way these opinions are usually expressed.

I would love to know why some folks can hear things and others can't but I suspect sadly this is one of those things that won't ever be solved and articles that claim the truth of a matter, as if their limited 'possibly valid' findings speaks for all and thus can be used/claimed as a universal truth also takes me to the fair.

I know what I can and can't hear but that is all I can say, as I can't climb in others heads and hear what they hear or don't hear.

Anyway I predict a riot with this topic as it always ends up with clear divisions and opposing armies squaring of to each other.


Regards Neil

That might indicate that you're reacting emotionally to being told it's a placebo effect and therefore your subjective judgement is obscured by that emotion. emotions are powerful thingsl

Placebo effects are real and are amazingly powerful..

However, what the blog post describes appears to be REAL, big differences in sound and then believing that he's being fooled after having read some artcile about the placebo effect. Now he is unable to judge his own senses without his concious thought convincing himself he's imagining it.

No wonder the whole blog is about anxiety l someone who genuinly suffers from anxiety is always convinced by their thoughts and imagination and hence why they are over-anxious.

placebo effect comes in when differences are subtle in this hobby. some people like to overblow subtle, non repeatable differences as major changes in sound.

[Spectral Morn]

That might indicate that you're reacting emotionally to being told it's a placebo effect and therefore your subjective judgement is obscured by that emotion. emotions are powerful thingsl

Placebo effects are real and are amazingly powerful..

However, what the blog post describes appears to be REAL, big differences in sound and then believing that he's being fooled after having read some artcile about the placebo effect. Now he is unable to judge his own senses without his concious thought convincing himself he's imagining it.

No wonder the whole blog is about anxiety l someone who genuinly suffers from anxiety is always convinced by their thoughts and imagination and hence why they are over-anxious.

placebo effect comes in when differences are subtle in this hobby. some people like to overblow subtle, non repeatable differences as major changes in sound.

Yep I have an emotional response to folks telling me I can't hear stuff I can hear. Often they have never heard the gear in question, in a remotely similar system or room but still feel qualified to comment

I am totally secure in what I hear and my listening abilities - so my 'emotional' response is based not on that but simply the audacity some people have in thinking they have a right to dismiss my valid listening experiences in the way that this often happens.

First forum I joined years ago was Zero Gain - what a serious mistake ..... burn the subjectavist was their battle cry. I left and joined AOS.

I am not saying by the way that measurements aren't important but ears must be the final arbiter not an oscilloscope.


Regards Neil

[Spectral Morn]

It's not really a subj/obj thing at all. If I say 'I can hear that X is better than Y' then that's good enough for me. If however I want to persuade or convince others that X is better than Y, then I'll need to demonstrate it to them, preferably so they don't know whether they're listening to X or Y. That's still based on a subjective listening experience.

The objectivist viewpoint would be 'X measures better than Y, therefore it is better, and there's no need to listen to the two to validate that'.

Thing is X may only be better than Y in a similar/identical context/identical type of room/system/music - that kind of puts the cat among the pigeons and would make it harder to do this.


Regards Neil

[Joe]

Thing is X may only be better than Y in a similar/identical context/identical type of room/system/music - that kind of puts the cat among the pigeons and would make it harder to do this.


Regards Neil

They'd have to come over to my place to do the comparison. There's no way I'm schlepping lots of stuff around just to satisfy people's idle curiosity.

Seriously though, it's not even a matter of establishing that 'X is better than Y' (because tastes differ) but establishing that 'X sounds different to Y', which is a yes/no question and thus easier to answer.

[nat8808]

Yep I have an emotional response to folks telling me I can't hear stuff I can hear. Often they have never heard the gear in question, in a remotely similar system or room but still feel qualified to comment

I am totally secure in what I hear and my listening abilities - so my 'emotional' response is based not on that but simply the audacity some people have in thinking they have a right to dismiss my valid listening experiences in the way that this often happens.

First forum I joined years ago was Zero Gain - what a serious mistake ..... burn the subjectavist was their battle cry. I left and joined AOS.

I am not saying by the way that measurements aren't important but ears must be the final arbiter not an oscilloscope.


Regards Neil

I have to own up that I was teasing with the emotional response bit I wrote..

However the rest was serious - that you believe that your brain response to a stimulous via your ear holes is an unfiltered, unadulterated direct response to the pressure waves hitting those ears is completely accurate, a kind of "straight wire" is fine.

But the whole point of the placebo effect is that one BELIEVES !

There is no way to tell if differences you hear are true or not, none whatsoever, not without some external confirmation that isn't human and therefore possibly experiencing the very same placebo effects as you. Therefore some people give up and turn to measurements, others turn to a kind of artisan science of "feeling".

However some people just believe anything that their brain tells them is "the truth" even when it's rediculous e.g. someone at work was being rude when they weren't, someone farted when it was just someone's shoe squeeking, their other half is definately having an affair when they're the most loyal partner they've ever had, some crystals placed on a cable makes the midrange more musical, there's a psychic connection with someone because they called when you thought of them, God exists and is a man with a white beard, Jesus was white etc etc - in every case the believer will "know" that what they believe is the truth and nothing will convince them otherwise.

In my opinion it is better to admit that one doesn't know whether its just a placebo effect and therefore be cautious and humble about subtle changes in perception of sound. You have to try your best to take yourself out of yourself to make better judgement, not just with audio (audio doesn't really matter) but in life in general