Why is HFW so biased against vintage cartridges?

[Marco]

F.A.O Dave (DSJR, and also anyone else),

Could you do me a favour and ask what Adam (Beobloke's) problem is with the M3D here on pfm:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/s...ad.php?t=64664 (see post #12).

I've noted your response on page 2 - you tell 'em, mate!!

HFW is by far my favourite hi-fi magazine, and I get on well with David Price, but I can't for the life of me understand what Adam (and Noel) has got against classic cartridges? They unfairly 'diss' the 103 at every opportunity and now it looks like the M3D is set for similar treatment...

What is their problem? They promote all sorts of vintage gear in the magazine, so why not also cartridges that can still compete with, and in many areas outperform, their modern counterparts?

What rips my knitting is that, on one hand, neither of them bats an eyelid (rightly so) extolling the virtues of Garrards or vintage valve gear, but when it comes to cartridges from a similar era, none in their minds can be any good. There’s no reason why well designed vintage cartridges can’t perform as well as some revered vintage equipment, given the right operating environment. Indeed, given such an environment, extensive listening experience tells me quite categorically that they do!!!

Perhaps someone (preferably Adam) could explain the double standards in evidence here?

Has Adam even heard an M3D? If not, he could try fitting one (with an N21D stylus) to the excellent Jelco SA-750D he reviewed, and so likes, including a heavy headhshell, put that on his Garrard, and then report his findings in the magazine – that way he’d be in a position to know what he’s talking about... Or would that affect his shares in Ortofon, Goldring and Audio Technica?

Anyway, if you could raise this issue with him on pfm on my behalf I'd be much appreciated. You could even link to the discussion here and draw his attention to my comments.

Marco.

[RobHolt]

Hi Marco,

I haven't heard the M3D but I have used a DL103 and several other what we'd now call vintage cartridges over the years.

Foe me they are a very mixed bag with some superb qualities but also some nasties which almost always comes down to the use of conical or basic elliptical styli.
Focusing on the 103 for a moment, it sounds solid, rich and for the most part very coherent in a way that escapes many modern designs. But you cannot escape the basic laws of physics and a conical stylus of the type used does suffer high tracing distortion at high frequencies. Note I said 'tracing' and not 'tracking' as they are quite *different.

With a conical tip, the diamond profile has a wide radius which fits the recorded undulations in the groove wall very well at mid and low frequencies, but not at high - it is simply too wide to accurately trace the high frequency 'wiggles'.
Two things happen as a result. Firstly, distortion is high and rises as the stylus moves across the disc (I'm talking double figure THD) and secondly the tip suffers scanning loss resulting in the frequency response drooping as you move from the outer to inner grooves - this is about 5db on the 103 and will be more on the M3D.

Those are very real negatives that can be shown in basic testing and you cannot escape them without moving to fine line or other advanced tip profiles.
That doesn't make them poor cartridges as everyone will have a different reaction to the balance of strengths and weaknesses.
I'm incredibly sensitive to this to the point where I wont even use elliptical styli - it has to be a VDH, FG, MR or similar profile so I react quite negatively to the sound of a 103, and about 60% of other cartridges on the market.

People certainly shouldn't slag-off these old designs though because, as I say, in many areas they teach modern designs a trick or two.




* Tracking distortion refers to mid and low frequency tracking ability and is determined largely by cantilever hinge compliance, VTF and damping. Tracing distortion is determined largely by the tip profile - the precise fit of the scanning edge of the tip to the HF waves pressed into the groove wall.

[Steve Toy]

I think that may well be the answer needed.

[griffo104]

Those are very real negatives that can be shown in basic testing and you cannot escape them without moving to fine line or other advanced tip profiles.
That doesn't make them poor cartridges as everyone will have a different reaction to the balance of strengths and weaknesses.
I'm incredibly sensitive to this to the point where I wont even use elliptical styli - it has to be a VDH, FG, MR or similar profile so I react quite negatively to the sound of a 103, and about 60% of other cartridges on the market.

Sorry but I can understand the negativity of the DL103. Awful cart. I know that I had it in a Techno arm and sebsequently we all now know it's no good in a Rega based arm but I've subsequently heard it on SL1210's basic arm and still don't get it.

[Marco]

Hi Griffo,

How's it going?

If you've read the multitude of threads here on the subject (particularly those I've written) you should know that the stock Technics arm, unmodified, is not really suitable for MC cartridges. If you read the archive you'll see why.

Therefore, I'm not surprised you still think that the 103 is an "awful cart"!

Listen to one on a Jelco SA-750D (or something of that ilk) with a heavyweight headshell, through a properly matched transformer, and the results will be very different.

I still don't think though that, like Rob, it'll quite be your 'thang', but you'll certainly be able to hear what it does well that is so valued by 1000s of enthusiasts like me

Rob,

Superb post! I'm in the middle of some work right now, so don't have much time, but rest assured I will reply in detail later!

Marco.

[griffo104]

Hi Griffo,

How's it going?

If you've read the multitude of threads here on the subject (particularly those I've written) you should know that the stock Technics arm, unmodified, is not really suitable for MC cartridges. If you read the archive you'll see why.

Therefore, I'm not surprised you still think that the 103 is an "awful cart"!

Listen to one on a Jelco SA-750D with a heavyweight headshell, through a properly matched transformer, and the results will be very different.

I still don't think though that, like Rob, it'll quite be your 'thang', but you'll certainly be able to hear what it does well that is so valued by 1000s of enthusiasts like me

Rob,

Superb post! I'm in the middle of some work right now, so don't have much time, but rest assured I will reply in detail later!

Marco.

I think you are right Marco - there's only so many chances you can give a component (I think that's 5 for the DL103 including in my own system and I still don't get it)

Ironically there are still many hifi nuts out there in forum land (do a search) and also on dealer pages who still say it's a good match for the Rega based arms (I can think of one reviewer who uses it on a P3)

It's still a good price, even after the price increases in the cart world at the moment, so I can see why it's so tempting for so many people but the cart should be the last piece of the puzzle, not the first if you see what I'm saying.

For me Denon make much better carts in the DL301 and 304.

[RobHolt]

I think that may well be the answer needed.

Steve, feel free to use or quote it in response if you wish.

[RobHolt]

I think you are right Marco - there's only so many chances you can give a component (I think that's 5 for the DL103 including in my own system and I still don't get it)

Ironically there are still many hifi nuts out there in forum land (do a search) and also on dealer pages who still say it's a good match for the Rega based arms (I can think of one reviewer who uses it on a P3)

It's still a good price, even after the price increases in the cart world at the moment, so I can see why it's so tempting for so many people but the cart should be the last piece of the puzzle, not the first if you see what I'm saying.

For me Denon make much better carts in the DL301 and 304.

There is something about the sound of a low compliance cartridge (MM or MC) with a solid body that shines through in the sound. They don't bob around in the groove like higher compliance modern carts which I'm sure translates to stability and solidity in the sound presentation. You need higher VTF so there is no free lunch but the quality is hard to miss.

The old Supex cartridges had this quality as did the old Linn Asak but they do need a substantial arm to work well. Regas have the mechanical integrity but lack mass.

[griffo104]

Rob, I agree with you. However I get much batter stabilty, imaging, detail, and bass from my Lyra Dorian on the Technoarm - and I don't need a step-up to get that either. Yes, it is much more expensive than the DL103 but for me the deck and arm are sorted the cart is the last piece - and it's a great piece, imo .

I also far prefer the DL301ii which I think is a very good cart for the money.

I listen to the DL103 against more modern carts such as the Ortofon Rondo series or the latest MM carts they are producing now, the Lyras, the Benz Micro carts, (even the cheapest Benz Micros) and I find it lacking in so many areas for me that I find hard to see why there is such a following for the cart.

As mentioned, I don't get it but I'm not sure if that's the cart that's the problem or me

[RobHolt]

In fact the Dorian is a stiffy, so to speak
Does have a whopping great HF peak though so needs very careful system matching.
Super clean and pure though.

Choosing cartridges is a bit like choosing your favorite chocolates - there is flavour for everyone.