'Digital Glare' - is it really the medium at fault?

[Macca]

Many people prefer listening to analogue sources over digital, even if they have a very competent digital set up. I've always counted myself amongst them even though I can happily listen to my CD players for hours on end without an 'fatigue' creeping in. Nevertheless, swap back to, say, vinyl, after a long digital session and it is like relaxing into a hot bath. Why? Well the one thing that has always irritated me with digital is the 'glare'. I am not alone as I have heard and read of may people saying the same thing. The sound is good but there is an effect in the mid and top that somehow diminishes the 'listenability' compared to analogue. This is often refered to as 'glare' but other words can be used to describe the effect, for example 'sheen', 'brightness', 'hardness', 'fowardness'. and 'spotlit'. There are various methods used to ameliorate this - using valves in the player or DAC, a valve buffer, rolling off the top end of the player, Pioneer's Legato Link system and so on. Pretty much everyone agrees this is an issue.

I have always assumed that this was down to the nature of digital itself. Until recently when I installed a passive pre-amp into my system, and discovered that the glare has disappeared altogether. I now have a wonderfully neutral and 'hear-through' mid and top, and what's more, cymbals are now being resolved correctly, with lovely decay and reverb, something I have never heard from CD before on any system at any price or level of competence. Listening to Steely Dan's 'Gaucho' last night and it was like I had never really heard this recording before. Pure, perfect sound forever? Well...yes. I had really assumed that digital glare was a limitation of the medium, that it was on the disc. But it seems that it isn't. And thinking about it, back in the olden days when I would tape other peoples CDs onto cassette, it did make the glare vanish - and I had always put this down to a degradation in the sound from using a budget tape deck. But I have also read about people recording CD onto a quality R2R and getting a 'better' sound. How could this be?

Now apologies if you already knew this. But I am wondering what the reason for this revelation is. A pet theory I have just pulled out of the air is that the output level of most if not all CD players and DACs is just way too high and that running that signal through an active pre-amp i.e another gain stage is both unnecessary and counter-productive. It is that extra gain stage that is causing the 'digital glare'. Copying the CD to R2R or cassette bypasses that extra gain stage and with the lower output of those devices, the problem is sidestepped. Now I suppose this is not the case for all active pre-amps , just those several dozens (both stand alone and integrated) that I have heard. Fair enough if that is the case. Does anyone else relate to what I am going on about here? Is there possibly another reason for this effect? Your opinions welcomed.

[Firebottle]

I think you might well be right with the high level being the problem.
Maybe the high level of mid and top are creating more intermod distortion that is making itself heard via the `glare`.

Alan

[Clive]

I find it's many modern recordings that are tiring, whether cd or vinyl.

[Rothchild]

I think the analogue part of the chain (everything after the converter, including the bits in the cd player or dac) have a bigger impact on the overall sound than the digital parts. As we saw in the volume levelling thread, it's likely that there's a lot going on with regards to gain structure (in particular) in HiFi systems that's not being attended to, which could make simple, cheap and significant improvements to people's listening pleasure.

I've not looked to see if they are readily available but it should be fairly easy to create a test / callibration cd, with tones at particular levels and use an spl meter (and potentially a voltmeter) to callibrate the gainstaging in a HiFi (eg to work out if the output of your dac / cd player is 'nominal' or 'hot' etc)

[Macca]

I find it's many modern recordings that are tiring, whether cd or vinyl.

How modern is 'modern'? With my current set up quality digital recordings really do shine whereas with some AAD recordings the limitations are shown up by comparison. I don't have much recent music but they do tend to be a bit hot, especially 'best of' compilations. An age old problem and not related to the digital glare issue though. I'd like to try a cd player or DAC with a lower output than standard just out of interest. Can anyone recommend one?

[Oldpinkman]

I don't think its the amp - gain stage, although what I'm about to say doesn't explain what you are hearing Martin

For me the "glare" went 25 years ago when I first heard DaCapo 22 bit. Actually, maybe the glare went with the other filters too, certainly 1307, but I preferred the overall balance of sound with 22 bit. JW and AK scratch each others eyes out as to whether HDCD or 24 bit is the best, but I believe there is consensus that both are even better than 22 bit (never heard one, but I think Arthur said he has HDCD somewhere - so I'll add it to my shopping list for the next visit)

So what? Well - I would stand by that assertion whether using the Pip preamp I use in active or passive mode. Even in active preamp mode, DaCapo is glare free. So I agree - its not inherent in the CD technology - its poor application. But it's not as simple as gain stages

Also as someone recently pointed out (Gordon??) a lot of the problem with CD's is poor recordings - or rather poor CD mastering. Having now listened to a few CD's since realising this, I have good and bad. Many of my CD's are really poor even with DaCapo. I hadn't appreciated until I enquired about getting a vinyl pressing of Dave Migden that although there is one master recording, that in turn is then mastered for CD and vinyl differently. Clearly some CD mastering was pants. And many recordings of the early CD era (and some recent ones) are poor too. But get a good CD and it can be glare free and so close to vinyl as makes little difference. (Well, jolly good anyway)

Active or passive (cheating a bit here since passive is from memory a long time ago till I get my Pip 2 fixed). The point is they are glare free now too on Active - however much I will probably choose to have passive when I have it.

'S my thoughts

[Macca]

Hi Richard

It may be that the Pip is one of those active pre-amps that does not introduce glare. I'm sure there must be some around.

I would like to get away from the suggestions that this is down to poor production/mastering of some recordings. We all know this is true of some recordings but it is not the case for an awful lot of material - see the example I gave of Gaucho - one of the most expensive and one of the best recordings ever made - Digital Glare is something else entirely and affects all recordings equally.

[Oldpinkman]

Sure. Do you have Gaucho on CD and vinyl? I have it on vinyl only

[Macca]

Two vinyl copies, Cd remaster and the DVD-A, I'm afraid..

[Gordon Steadman]

I've used a passive pre-amp now for about 15 years. I must admit I've never been particularly aware of any 'glare' on Cds although I have always used a Pioneer PD-S901 which has legato Link I think. Sounded pretty close to vinyl without having that total believability somehow.

Certainly, the best Cds are very close indeed and I get great enjoyment from the music. As I have to use the Marantz CD63SE at present, its not quite so good but I still wouldn't describe the sound as having glare so maybe the passive is helping.

I'm not sure if the Firebottle has an active or passive pre but that's resting with the Quads for the winter, so haven't spent much time with Cds on that. I bought a Pioneer CD7700 as a possible replacement for the 901 but its nowhere near as good so its in bedroom 1 system which my wife uses for ballet exercises - no sitting and listening for her there.

All this certainly gives a lie to the idea that all CD players sound the same