1210 - Journey to audionirvana @ PT

[Tiff_Needle]

So, finally...

A few spare minutes to kick-off this glorious new journey ...

(an audiofool as to exaggerate is new findings just for the make believe that every cent he spends as actual scientific arguments that supports is ventures, right? )

So after a proper presentation (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...llo-from-Lx-PT) and your more than warm welcome greetings, I hereby officially start a thread that I hope will help me be guided through on this new journey.


As already mentioned on my welcome thread, I've just recently (my gosh, two weeks have already passed? And still no 1210 feeding milivolts to my pre-amp!?!!? What a crime...) acquired a brand new, mint, boxed 1210 mk2 as my first TT rig!

My current setup is composed by:

- Jeff-Rowland Model 6 w/ BPS-6 Battery power supplies - power amp

- Jeff-Rowland Synergy IIi - pre

- Monitor Audio PL300 (Considering the Apogee duetta signature path refurbed w/ Graz's new ribbons and updated XOvers)

- Sony SCD-1 (considering abandoning for good the phisical digital media - So... I'll have to say "see you in the afterlife my cherished love" to the SCD-1 someday...)

- Abrahamsen V6 DAC (Temporary DAC - Several serious DACs up for auditioning)

- Mac Mini w/ AudioNirvana +

- Technics SL 1210 mk2 - completely stock

- No phono Stage Yet - (Considering Jeff-rowland Cadence - A bit steep for what I was thinking)

- Spectral HE2002-BG-AL rack

Objective: get the most of the 1210, step by step. DD T/T are indeed special. Let's see if this fellow can cup up with my remaining rig.

Biggest challenge (in a newbie's perspective): How to overcome the known limitations of the 1210 (and most DD) in terms of sound-staging!!!!

Passion: Enjoy and be immersed in music instead of being happy for an hour showing off a fatigating, over-analitical, dull, all bells and whistles high-end system to friends that doesn't really give me any personal pleasure. (Came from a 15+ years living with CJ system and its over-kodachrome presentation that simply gave great pleasure listening to)




I've already read several threads here, over AoS, and from what I've read I came to the following conclusions:



Upgrades to consider, not necessarily on the correct order in terms of priority...

- MN Bearing

- Paul Hynes PSU - SR7-EHD PSU w/

TDR21 dual 21-volt regulator module
S1709v4LN regulator module
Z1705LN regulator module

- Funk Firm Platter/5mm Achromat

- Isonoe Isolation feet (should I complement them w/ Sorbothane boots?)


Cartridge:

Now here is a serious issue... My 1210 is currently cartridge-less, and I really want to put it operational ASAP. But...

I really don't wish to spend a bloat load of money on a temporary cartridge just to buy another one after I've fitted a new arm on it! No way... Nor whish to spend a bloat load of money on a cartridge (I do have other bad, money spending, habits..)

As mentioned before, no phono stage yet, so that could be a plus as I could end buying a phono stage that would mate with the selected cartridge. But, I must say that I'm very inclined to a Cadence phono stage (I already have a unit waiting for me somewhere in Netherlands) for several of reason. The only drawback really is price. It comes at a modestly steeped cost!

Here is a short list of what I'm considering (based only on literature and not actual experience):

Denon DL-103R (***)

Audio-Technica AT-33EV(****)

BENZ-MICRO MC GOLD (****)

Ortofon 2M Bronze (**)

Goldring 1042 (**)


* = to were my inclination points at

Tone Arm:

Oooff, another headache!

Really need your help here...

SME 3009?

SME V? (Way more than what I was considering, euro/pound/dollar.. wise)

Jelco? (First time I've heard of it was actually here. No past experience whatsoever)



Well, for starters I think that this pretty much sums up what a 1210 newbie (actually, turntable newbie really) was able to gather in a few hours...

Now experts, can you please step in and share your wise wisdom with me ?


First two questions:

1 - Where do I start

2 - Which cartridge should I go for. (would be used for now on the stock 1210 arm... but keep in mind what I've wrote above)



PS: I really need to start putting price tags on all of this and collect as may contacts as possible on where can I get this stuff.

Project Deadline: Somewhere in the beginning of FY15, so that gives me what, a year and a half?!

[Tarzan]

First and foremost Jonathan, you will need to set a budget, to avoid expensive/ timewasting mistakes?

A bit of a generalisation l know.

[Wakefield Turntables]

If your going down the SME tonearm route only go for he 3009 if your a budget get the V if you can, additionally the denon 103 is a great cart with the V anything audiotechnica is too bright and shorty (I've been their). Of course others will recommend other tonearms but that's what I'd do if your doing the SME thing..

[The Grand Wazoo]

Where should you start?
I'd suggest that you spend several weeks with the deck as standard and with a relatively cheap cartridge mounted. Get to know the basic qualities of the device first and get to know them inside out - how can you possibly know what you are improving otherwise?

[Tarzan]

Where should you start?
I'd suggest that you spend several weeks with the deck as standard and with a relatively cheap cartridge mounted. Get to know the basic qualities of the device first and get to know them inside out - how can you possibly know what you are improving otherwise?

x2, get used it first, the stock Techie is very musical indeed.

[kininigin]

This maybe a stupid question,but do you actually own any vinyl?

I'd be a bit cautious about spending lots of money on a tt if you don't!!!

[Audio Al]

As other have already said

Use it in standard form first , you will be surprised how good it sounds

My advice would be to stear clear of the AT cart as I have a AT120e and it produces a hum , I have tried it on 2 1210 TTs with the same result, some sort of interference between the cart and the power supply , as the cart swings over the TT the hum starts on the outer edge of the platter and gets louder towards the middle of the TT

Also you need to decide if its going to be a Moving magnet or a moving coil cart , most popular will be a MM

Regarding vinyl , I obtain all mine form local car boot sales from 50p to £1 each , even cheaper if you buy job lots in bulk

[Stratmangler]

Regarding vinyl , I obtain all mine form local car boot sales from 50p to £1 each , even cheaper if you buy job lots in bulk

Last time I looked Lisbon was in Portugal (always look at the OP's location too ).
It's a long way to come to your local car boot sales, Al.

[Clive197]

Hi Jonathan

As already mentioned you are going to need to decide a budget. A couple of questions first.
1. Are you buying by via the internet or are there good dealers in Lisbon for you to visit?
2. Are you intending to buy each upgrade individually or do you want to pimp your Techie all in one go?
3. Are you handy or does DIY cause you issues?

It is a fact that on forums if you ask a question of 50 people you will get one way or the other 50 different opinions, as few of us will totally agree across all the options as we all have our personal tastes. Hence the questions, as it helps to narrow the options.

[Tiff_Needle]

This maybe a stupid question,but do you actually own any vinyl?

I'd be a bit cautious about spending lots of money on a tt if you don't!!!

The obvious answers, YES!

My vinyl collection is nowhere near as big as my digital collection (CD,SACD,DVD-A,BD, PCM @ 16/44,1 till 24/384, DSD64 & DSD128) but fortunately have quite a few nicelly kept LP records waiting patiently to be played on the 1210.

I've always intended to go through the analog route therefore from time to time whenever some record caught my attention I would buy it.

I honestly don't believe that my vinyl collection will ever be as big the digital collection (~2500+ albums) as I do not intend to substitute all my music with vinyl. And to be honest I'm a bit tired of buying repeatably the same albums only because a new format is available or a new remaster is available. Complete waste of money if you ask me...

The main driver behind this vinyl venture is to have a special selected set of music in analog from masters also made in the analog domain.

It makes no sense to me buying (And I've bought quite few to be honest) digitally mixed, mastered music in vinyl as some folks do. You simply end-up introducing another (if not several) stages of entropy on the chain. Just as listening to digital transfers of music recorded, mixed and mastered on analog domain is just another way of loosing something on the way (an exception could me made to some direct DSD transfers that are simply stunning)



As I've not had the courage yet to plunge into the supra-sumo of analog and be as close to the source as possible (talking about R2R), vinyl might be as close as you get without spending loads of cash on a format that is both dead (ok so a few of them out there are still recording on IPS but that doesn't mean its a commercially viable medium, at least for the common mortal that likes do listen to more than a few hundreds of albums), highly priced with limited offer.

But heck, if I could afford it just for the sheer pleasure of using something exotic that actually might sound superior to anything else on earth, I know where I would put my money. I would certainly go for a United Home Audio, Phase 11, R2R!! (http://www.unitedhomeproducts.com/)

But, as I have no luck on lottery tickets and beside the fact that I live in a place where who (really) runs the country is completly obsessed on slaughtering the working class with high taxes.... I see no way of having the luxury of going to deep, or shall I say deeper, into really high-end toys for grownups.

Having said that, and coming back to your question, YES indeed, I do have a "smallish" collection of LP records that I'm very proud of and wainting anxiously to drop the needle on them!


Yes, I do not reside in the UK but no worries... there is a lot of vinyl for sale in Portugal. Not as much as in the UK and other countries, and not as cheap, but no worries we manage quite well!

The good thing is that I love to travel and whenever I go to places like UK (specially London), Netherlands(specially Amsterdam) - been on both just recently (the who concert in Amsterdam will be a memory that I'll cherish till the end of my days) and will be going back to both next month !! Can't wait to see Steven Wilson and Peter Gabriel in London, eheh - I always fly back to Portugal with quite a heavier load

Side Note: Oh by the way, Montreal is really a great place to buy record!!! Sweet... Just whish I could spend 4000€ each time I enter a record store that has really good stuff...


What I love about buying vinyl in certain places outside Portugal, is that you're able to get great recording, original pressings in mint conditions at good prices on the second hand market. There are also good offerings here in Lisbon or Porto but they're actually more expensive than the average price in certain cities, that is, price/shape wise.

Amsterdam as few stores but with really good quality second-hand records and the average price is nice. It should be kept that way for many many years to come...

I went a lot off-topic on my own thread here, but ok... Let's get back on track

So you've asked about budget!

To be honest, I have none!

I would say that it all depends on whether its justifiable or not. I'm aware that I'll have to spend quite a bit to get the 1210 on par with some other high-end TT but I also have no intention of spending 5k plus on a T/T... from there on I would prefer going for something more high-endish (badge-wise), like an SME.

For me this is a mid-term project so my scope is to have it complete within 1 & 1/2 to 2 years.

It looks to me that the component where I'll be spending most of the money will be on the tonearm.

I do love the SME V but does the 1210 (please, please don't shoot me) really cup up with an arm of this caliber?

It would be really nice if I could spend a few hours listening to a heavily modded 1210 with all the bells and wistles but I doubt anyone nearby as a 1210 modded let alone heavily modded.

So what to do?!

First of all I want to get the 1210 singing and for that I need a phono stage and a cartridge.

I do agree that I should first live with it and learn its ways on grooving the music (although I'm not a first timer on 1210's... Just never heard it on a system like mine).

As mentioned earlier, I'm completely aware that I'll be spending quite a few euros on the techie but want to be as rational as possible on it and avoid wasting money unnecessarily (troika eats up quite a big chunk of my earnings so, no fooling around is recommended).

So cartridge wise I wanted to go for something that would be on par with an arm that would be fitted somewhere in the future, such as an SME (309/V - Jelco 750).

For that I would really like to have your thoughts.

Between MM & MC, normally I more towards MC even on the budget segment (<1000€), so I would say that I would go for an MC. Aside from that, should I pull the trigger on the Cadence phono stage, I would need to stick no MC as the Cadende as no MM option,

My trouble is that it seems to me that normally MC coils under 1k have a light tendency to be over-shouty on the mid-range.

Whatever cartridge I go for now, will always be a compromise but taking into account that I will most certainly change the tonearm to something of higher caliber I would prefer buying something that would please me afterwards without the need of buying another Cart.

Qualities that I'm looking for, that in my opinion would be good taking into account my system's actual character.

Body;

Wieght;

Wood, wine, honey;

Stage;

Depth;

Velvet mids and highs (my speakers have ribbon tweeters and they are already so revealing);

I would say,a tad of color if you may...

My system is already very neutral as we speak... so adding a bit of color wound't hurt, specially for those nostalgic 60 & 70's recordings of prog.!

I'm very inclined towards the Denon DL-103R or BENZ-MICRO MC GOLD.

As I would be using them on the stock 1210 arm, what would you recommend for any of these to play its best on this arm?

I've read that, at least for the case of the DL103R, that I should get a Shumiko headshell and extra weight. Can any of you specify exactly what would be reccomended?



After having decided and fitted, both the cart. and phono stage, I was thinking on going for the Paul Hynes PSU or the Mike New bearing.


That is, putting apart new feet for the 1210 that might be bought anytime soon...

What are your opinions on using the Isonoe feet considering the fact that the 1210 is sited on a Spectral HE2002-BG-AL.


Tkx