Mains cables, myths, magic, laws of physics and dambusters

[Oldpinkman]

Marco

As Dave has pointed out they were the bargains to which my attention was drawn in France (although I think with a bit of extra length to bypass the multi-way, and shipping they weighed in at a wallet-sapping £30.55). Since they are "DIY" - I wouldn't presume to return them for a refund - I will simply relish their aesthetic beauty.

If, and I feel this coming on, there is a suggestion that these leads are sold only for their appearance, and aren't the real deal which provokes the phone calls of rapture

1) I am prepared to buy any cables on the basis of the very reasonable, proper and fair returns policy offered by Dave for a further trial - and keep them if I hear a difference
2) Isn't that a little bit naughty? I was directed to them because of a reference to the price of mains cables on Gordons thread, and I conceded that this was indeed a very reasonable price for the purpose of an experiment. Moreover, on the bumf on the web page it says "MCRU have compiled a true audiophile grade DIY mains power lead set. Featuring quality german made 3 core shielded power cable using 2.5mm conductors and a martin kaiser german IEC connector, finally our reference mains plug with silver plated fuse, fits the LAPP cable perfectly... True audiophile quality for £10.00!" Have I been sold a pup ?

My other kit is Cambridge CD5 (as transport) and DaCapo 22 bit (without the DC power supply - but I could rig it up to run off batteries at a pinch). There is also the AV system, with its tiresome hum problem, but I will unplug the input lead from that to eliminate any effect, and switch off (remove plugs from wall) on all other AV stuff (Tv, sky box, blue ray etc)

But if I can't hear a difference, and you can, then either you are delusional, or there is a real difference and I may benefit from that in the same way I can't hear harmonics directly, but miss them when they are gone. So I'd like you to prove to both of us you can hear it with a simple blind demo. Or anybody else closer to Kent can prove it the same way. Cos if it works - I want some.

As a side note - regarding my point about physics, and your comment on it, (hoping I am not doing you a shocking injustice here) neither of us really understand this stuff. We are dependant on faith - believing people we trust to properly understand it, and attempting to grasp something of the point if they are nice enough to explain it in simple language. But it is interesting to note on these threads, that everyone with an apparant genuine understanding of the techie bits, lines up on the side of bunkum.

I don't think this means they are insensitive souls incapable of appreciating the subtleties of more artistic types. I think it is more suggestive of well documented psychological phenomena on the part of the faithful.

But I repeat. I am not knocking. If its real - I want a piece of the action. I don't want to be told I'm not good enough and will have to go without. And if its real - even if I can't hear it, even if we can't scientifically support it, someone can demonstrate it. And if nobody can demonstrate it, we can all draw our own (probably still very different) conclusions.

[Oldpinkman]

Simon, I agree with both you and Barry that the whole purpose of a mains lead is to go from the wall socket to your hi-fi without spilling any on the carpet But, there is more to the scenario than just that criteria. All of you have ignored the second part of my initial posting which says that a "sooper dooper" mains cable is merely LESS IMPERFECT that the poor quality moulded ones of indeterminate parentage that are generally being used by those who only see the wire as a conveyancer of electricity.

The incoming loop resistance circuitry is only ever as good as it's weakest link and if that one metre of poor quality wire happens to be the weakest link in the circuit, then taking that out and replacing it with a "sooper dooper" power cord will yield a perceived 'improvement' in sound quality, not because it has some sort of magic properties, but because it is LESS IMPERFECT than the cable it has replaced. In actual fact it is the fuse in the plug and/or the component's internal fusing arrangements that IS the weakest link in the loop circuit (It is by design intended to be for safety reasons) but let's not go there shall we? This also makes sense when folks ask the same old perennial question "How can a one metre length of wire make a difference when there are miles and miles of cables from the power station?" If those miles and miles of cable as thick as your torso are bottlenecked into a piece of wire no thicker than a human hair, then effectively that is as thick as the wire ever is.

The second part of the conundrum is, "If the power supply within the component is "properly designed" then an aftermarket power cord will make no difference at all" but nobody yet has proved to me or anyone else that this is fact. Sure, it will convert AC into DC and have a given power delivery capability for a given load, but those calculations and implementations are based upon static measurements and not under real time dynamic conditions.

The third part of the conundrum is how can a sooper dooper power cord ALONE reduce the noise floor of a hi-fi system, or for that matter a television too? I think I know the answer but that is based upon empirical evidence alone so I don't intend to start another sub-sub-sub debate

I think there is possibly something in this - but I feel it comes under my heading of "faulty wiring" in earlier discussions. If I wire up the 3 pin plug without doing up the screws on the terminal pins, and wiggle the wire, I will hear an effect. So "mains cables can affect the sound produced by hifi". But only because they are faulty. Fat wires - maybe, but whilst acknowledging the limitations of my technical knowledge, I have a feeling its got to be really feeble wire on the preamp to make a difference.

Interestingly, on a forum I was oblivious to until Marco banned reference to it so forcefully recently (one day over a beer perhaps I'll learn why) there was much talk of this IEE joint being the weak link, and at least in principle, that seems possible. But again - really comes under the heading of "faulty". I don't need cable like steel girders attached to the "proper" iee to fix a faulty joint.

Oh its going to be an exciting weekend in this house

[Oldpinkman]

That may well be true - but changing the metre of cable that runs to your gear isn't going to alter any of that.

Yup.

And to that I would just repeat I have NOT yet dismissed this. Since NOBODY has volunteered to demonstrate the effect and PROVE they can hear it, I am trying it for myself before making a preliminary statement of MY position on it.

Phew

[Spectral Morn]

Just completed the listening part of a review of some modestly priced mains cables - it will be published once maintenance on AIHFA is completed - and once again the improvement mainsleads can make was very evident. Rather than comparing to dearer reference cables I compared to bog standard supplied with equipment mainscables from which these cables would be bought as an upgrade and what a difference was heard.

Its good to go back to foundational experiences from time to time, and re-experiencing what I first did many years ago - back then with Kimber Power Kords - was once again a pretty sobering experience. I can't offer any explanation as to why better constructed, plugs, plating and material make such a difference - would love to see tech specs measurements - but my ears and repeated listening confirmed what I heard each time and the improvement was not subtle.

Frankly anyone using bog standard cabling is missing out on what their kit can really do - closed mind/ears = major performance drop and loss in musical enjoyment in my repeated listening experience.


Regards Neil

[brian2957]

Couldn't have put it any better myself Neil . That's been my own experience over the years regarding mains cables.

[Marco]

As Dave has pointed out they were the bargains to which my attention was drawn in France (although I think with a bit of extra length to bypass the multi-way, and shipping they weighed in at a wallet-sapping £30.55). Since they are "DIY" - I wouldn't presume to return them for a refund - I will simply relish their aesthetic beauty.

Ah, all is now clear. I hope that they do provide an audible improvement over what you're using now - which is what, incidentally?

However, these are clearly fairly basic cables, so I wouldn't expect 'miracles', or indeed to hear the level of sonic improvement I get from using David's 'Ultimates', at (I forget now) £700 a pop? Those contain all manner of things, from the type of copper used in the cable itself, to the specific design of the Furutech IEC connector and mains plug, none of which applies to the cables you've bought, therefore I would defintely bear that in mind!

My other kit is Cambridge CD5 (as transport) and DaCapo 22 bit (without the DC power supply - but I could rig it up to run off batteries at a pinch). There is also the AV system, with its tiresome hum problem, but I will unplug the input lead from that to eliminate any effect, and switch off (remove plugs from wall) on all other AV stuff (Tv, sky box, blue ray etc)

Ok, all I would say is to put the new mains cables on whatever powers your two main sources, therefore perhaps the PSU for your T/T and the CD5. However, experimenting is the key, in order to find where the cables have most effect, if any.

But if I can't hear a difference, and you can, then either you are delusional, or there is a real difference and I may benefit from that in the same way I can't hear harmonics directly, but miss them when they are gone. So I'd like you to prove to both of us you can hear it with a simple blind demo. Or anybody else closer to Kent can prove it the same way. Cos if it works - I want some.

Lol! I'll bear that in mind, but it's a bit of trek to Kent from Wrexham!! However, I would also extend you an invite to come here and conduct the same test

But I repeat. I am not knocking. If its real - I want a piece of the action. I don't want to be told I'm not good enough and will have to go without. And if its real - even if I can't hear it, even if we can't scientifically support it, someone can demonstrate it. And if nobody can demonstrate it, we can all draw our own (probably still very different) conclusions.

Sounds fine, but I think you're getting a bit too hung up on the 'if I'm not good enough and will have to go without' factor. Just try it - if it works, it works, if not, then it's no biggie. At least you'll be able to comment in future from a position of having had the practical experience of trying some 'exotic' mains cables, and you can simply go back to enjoying your music, smug in the knowledge that, in terms of them making no difference, you were 'right'!

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

Sorry, Geoff, that's a bad example.

Good valve amps should ALWAYS test well, in terms of the usual electrical parameters (and consequently sound good), as I'm sure all the resident valve amplifier designers here will tell you. Anthony TD and Nick Gorham, for example, would never allow such amps to leave their test bench and go into production otherwise!

If you're talking purely about certain aspects of distortion, in comparison with that of solid-state amplifiers, then that's a different matter

Marco.

Ah. What fun. Firstly, let me say I like valve amps. I am playing with a valve headphone amp (mainly I confess to try to get above a U grade on Ladybird electronics - nobody tries to teach about flip-flops, multi-stable vibrators, or NAND gates in valve electronic courses (they're not what you imagine Effem - we're not on lady parts - or even related accessories ) I also have a Fender Blues Junior, and not for the "crunch" from over-driving amps, but for the sweetness from the clean channel.

Two issues -

1) The sound doesn't always go with the measurements. My mate from PT days, showing a glimmer of interest in having another pop at designing a domestic audio amp, commented that he can find no correlation between measurable criteria for amps and percieved sound quality (and he has a hifi mag collection going back to the flood). Except one - $$$$$$$$$$
2) Same mate produced an amp with dialable even order harmonic distortion. you could dial in sweetness. Now - there is a lot of debate about why valves sound good, and whether distortion is meaningful - but they are a bit prone. THD on my Fender Junior is 5%. No decimals in there chaps. 5%

Which brings me onto a weeny disagreement I had with RFFC in private regarding this mates objective to design out distortion. It is not that no distortion means a great amp - there are manifestly too many examples of 70's SS amps which measure well on THD and sound grim, and valve amps which measure less well and sound LOVERLEY .

No - the issue is that distortion is just that. Never a good thing. Not by the definition of HiFi Marco and I agreed on when I joined this forum. By definition distortion means "less than perfect fidelity". It means the original signal we are trying to reproduce, our goal of a straight wire with gain, has failed. We have a distorted copy of the original.

No distortion is not a recipe for good amplifier design - well not a guarantee of success. But any distortion is a compromise of the basic goal.

And - whilst accepting everyones right to subjectively like what they like - often, such as in the case of the "sweetness" dial on that amp, that is nothing to do with Hi FIDELITY

Did I mention the boy has an irritating habit of then producing 1st class SS designs which sound "valvey". And is incapable of explaining why - just grins like a chimp

[Marco]

That may well be true - but changing the metre of cable that runs to your gear isn't going to alter any of that.

It might, if it could be proven that said metre of cable (taking into consideration also the effect of the plugs used), and the design of the cable itself, helped in some way to decouple equipment from the detrimental sonic effects of what David was describing.

I'm also convinced that reducing the effects of RFI, for example, when cables are produced in a 'twisted' internal wiring construction, is partly the responsible for why mains cables, designed for hi-fi purposes, seem to have a positive sonic effect on the equipment that they're connected to.

Furthermore, in terms of decoupling, might the sonic benefits of some of the more 'exotic' cables, with expensive connectors and plugs, which have been engineered to work in a specific way, in terms of reducing the ingress to equipment of harmful vibration, via a component's IEC inlet, be partly responsible for some of the sonic benefits heard?

It could be that the plugs themselves, in some situations, are having more of an effect on proceedings than the cable...

I've no idea - I'm just throwing some stuff into the pot, as it were, for debate. However, I do feel that we need to think a little more laterally/left-field about this whole matter, and not just about the basic electrical effects (or defining the laws of physics in such a 'black and white' way), before we're ever likely to get closer to a proper explanation of what is actually going on.

Marco.

[realysm42]

I don't know why I click threads like this anymore.

Yet I do

[Marco]

Ah. What fun. Firstly, let me say I like valve amps. I am playing with a valve headphone amp (mainly I confess to try to get above a U grade on Ladybird electronics - nobody tries to teach about flip-flops, multi-stable vibrators, or NAND gates in valve electronic courses (they're not what you imagine Effem - we're not on lady parts - or even related accessories ) I also have a Fender Blues Junior, and not for the "crunch" from over-driving amps, but for the sweetness from the clean channel.

Two issues -

1) The sound doesn't always go with the measurements. My mate from PT days, showing a glimmer of interest in having another pop at designing a domestic audio amp, commented that he can find no correlation between measurable criteria for amps and percieved sound quality (and he has a hifi mag collection going back to the flood). Except one - $$$$$$$$$$
2) Same mate produced an amp with dialable even order harmonic distortion. you could dial in sweetness. Now - there is a lot of debate about why valves sound good, and whether distortion is meaningful - but they are a bit prone. THD on my Fender Junior is 5%. No decimals in there chaps. 5%

Which brings me onto a weeny disagreement I had with RFFC in private regarding this mates objective to design out distortion. It is not that no distortion means a great amp - there are manifestly too many examples of 70's SS amps which measure well on THD and sound grim, and valve amps which measure less well and sound LOVERLEY .

No - the issue is that distortion is just that. Never a good thing. Not by the definition of HiFi Marco and I agreed on when I joined this forum. By definition distortion means "less than perfect fidelity". It means the original signal we are trying to reproduce, our goal of a straight wire with gain, has failed. We have a distorted copy of the original.

No distortion is not a recipe for good amplifier design - well not a guarantee of success. But any distortion is a compromise of the basic goal.

And - whilst accepting everyones right to subjectively like what they like - often, such as in the case of the "sweetness" dial on that amp, that is nothing to do with Hi FIDELITY

Did I mention the boy has an irritating habit of then producing 1st class SS designs which sound "valvey". And is incapable of explaining why - just grins like a chimp

Hi Richard,

I'm not getting into that (rather in-depth) subject here, mate. If you want to discuss valve amps, start a separate thread in Blank Canvas