Lenco versus Technics

[Oldpinkman]

Why is there this universal condemnation of the L75 tonearm? ..

Certainly the tube, headshell and the fact it detaches would be my causes for concern. Let me ask AK why he has a screw-on headshell with a self-tapper on his current arms, and come back on this. I might see if I can try one of his tubes on a techie too. I didnt think the bearings on the 75 were great. Bias system was good, if fiddly. (when you pick these up 2nd hand do they still have both weights?).

As for cast chassis - are we assuming they are an energy sink, or just not adding colouration from resonance? I'm not sure the main bearing was any more sloppy than an LP12 (ok, ok, i'll stop linn bashing now - promise)

[DSJR]

Seriously, the LP12 bearing was a very tightly toleranced item and with the hardening on the thrust plate sorted out, should be good for many many thousands of hours.

I've had loads of L75 bearing assemblies pass through my greasy paws and I assure you that properly set, with the arm wires not fouling (some do when the arms are bodged and this not taken care of on reassembly), the friction levels are extremely low. The knife edge blocks go off after a few years, but (not third party) replacements of a harder compound are available and seem to work just fine, the mass of the arm-beam preventing any chatter. The boxy headshell and seemingly crude wiring may not look foo enough, but should be fine for high output types and the internal wiring was individually screened cables, maximising stereo separation I thought..... Not suggesting you put a £300+ mc cart in one of these, but a 2M Blue or 500 and OM equivalent should be alright I think, as should the M97XE with damper in use, or a Pickering XV15/625 (are these still available?)

[Oldpinkman]

Yes - the lp12 bearings were adequately machined. Still just a metal rod in a bucket of oil though. Not sure I noted any problem with my very high use gl75 (10 years +). Have my eye on 1 on ebay so may discover different soon.
And you are right.in the context of an inexpensive starter the arm was ok with mms. The standard was of course the g800 in its various forms ( I remember now my upgrade to an elliptical diamond). It made a pretty good balanced sound for the money. I never tried a shure 97 in it but I would have thought that a very good idea with the damper. But that's about as far as it goes.

The 97 is better (much) undamped when the arm is good enough (774?). Damping is always a band aid that takes away.
But as a starter for under £500 ? £400 - 2nd hand gl75, a service, goldring 1022 would be better than a shop could do new. First to go is the mat. Followed by the arm. The whole arm. Pointless fannying about with a tube upgrsde. As a customisation it will probably cost more than an f5 with its superior bearings. That arm is seriously underpriced. Marketing is not arthurs strong suit.

[walpurgis]

Damping is always a band aid that takes away.

Not sure why damping should "take away". I've used arms with fluid damping and found them very lucid. It seems a logical means of permitting various cartridge compliances to be accomodated and also some cartridges benefit from use in a damped arm. Decca used fluid damping to good effect in the International arm.

[DSJR]

Yes - the lp12 bearings were adequately machined. Still just a metal rod in a bucket of oil though. Not sure I noted any problem with my very high use gl75 (10 years +). Have my eye on 1 on ebay so may discover different soon.
And you are right.in the context of an inexpensive starter the arm was ok with mms. The standard was of course the g800 in its various forms ( I remember now my upgrade to an elliptical diamond). It made a pretty good balanced sound for the money. I never tried a shure 97 in it but I would have thought that a very good idea with the damper. But that's about as far as it goes.

The 97 is better (much) undamped when the arm is good enough (774?). Damping is always a band aid that takes away.
But as a starter for under £500 ? £400 - 2nd hand gl75, a service, goldring 1022 would be better than a shop could do new. First to go is the mat. Followed by the arm. The whole arm. Pointless fannying about with a tube upgrsde. As a customisation it will probably cost more than an f5 with its superior bearings. That arm is seriously underpriced. Marketing is not arthurs strong suit.

Richard, why the mat? have you compared different types of mat on a GL75 or 78? The 78 mat is certainly slightly better, but the ribbed 75 one is superb (think rubber-ring-mat here) and really aids the drive and presence in the sound. The damper on Shures is properly designed and works just fine. I really don't think much is subjectively taken away (and I've used 97HE's, VSTV's and various V15 IV and V's with and without). Your huge difference may be my tiny one, but I haven't ever regarded Martin Colloms as 'god' since his HiFi Choice days, as he has too many commercial interests colouring his judgements on such things (they used an LVX arm back then FFS!). A 'sorted' GL75 in springy plinth with K9 absolutely trashed a Linn Axis/Basik Plus/K9 in ALL the Linn parameters and that was with stock internal and headshell wiring (fresh exit cables though).

Nah, the L75 arm LOOKS clunky, although the more streamlined L85 shell helps it out a bit. I still feel a modern lighter beam and simpler counterweight assembly would be enough and save the wholesale butchering that goes on with these decks

[Oldpinkman]

I haven't ever regarded Martin Colloms as 'god' since his HiFi Choice days,)

Dave
I'll respond to the other points, maybe, when my blood pressure comes down. I am prepared to accept guidance, and even criticism, with tolerance and humility in most circumstances. Please, if we are to stay friends, NEVER suggest I think Martin Colloms is God (or god). If you suffered "slowing under load" like I suffered "slowing under load" you would realise just how hurtful that is. The anti-christ possibly - but God? When I talk damping I talk my own home-brew crap, not crap acquired from any journalist, least of all Mr Colloms. Like I listen with my own ears too.
Reminds me, (forgive me if you've heard this before) of a letter I wish now I had framed, from a customer complaining about "slowing under load" (or "dynamic wow" as I think he once called it too). A long letter, which explained that although he couldnt hear it himself, his friend could, and his friend was a professional musician. Arthur was an interesting shade of magenta at the time. I just managed to avoid replying " I recommend in future you listen with your own ears instead of your friends, and advise him not to buy a Pink Triangle.

I think there is a risk I am guilty of occaisional hyperbole regarding differences. I have bored this forum rigid elsewhere about differences that matter and those that don't. I think some differences that matter, may be relatively small or hard to discern, but if they matter to me then they matter to me, and I may rather loosely refer to them as "huge". It''s a ratchet thing. If its not up to standard, it puts me off listening - there is no going back. I am curently not listening to music much because I am gagging for the Quad 405 to come home to daddy. On the subject of damping, I had all those shures, and was unfashionably fond of the V15-5 at the time. It was my main cartridge for at least a year, until I overcame prejudice and tried the U205, and never kept another cartridge more than a handful of LP's after that. (I was, also trying MC's, - a Supex 900, and black and rosewood koestsu's, but whilst they did some things really well - really well, they couldn't track well enough at maximum recommended tracking weight, and as Marco noted elsewhere, thats fine if you only like certain music, but if you are lumbered with broad tastes then it has to cope with all genres). I used the 97 and V-15(4) in my Linn Basik arm, and an ittok, and used damping to get a useable result. but in the 774 (and, I am near certain the orion - unless senility deceives me) I used the v15-4 and 5 undamped (with the damper removed) and the sound was more open and natural than damped. And pretty obviously the undamped cartridges on the 774 and orion, were better than the damped versions on LVV / Ittok. So without any intervention from Colloms at all - I liked the open sound undamped better than the slightly surpressed dull damped sound.
Mats - no I havent compared them. I havent seen a GL75 in 20 years (that may be about to change if I bid succesfully). I am remembering a bit, and going back to my weak understanding of physics, to "design by looking". That energy isnt getting far past the loose flappy headshell, I want to get it away from the vinyl asap, and I fancy a few of Arthurs tiny bubbles in an achromat for the job. Really I would like a nice thick acrylic platter, and a bearing attached to something which can dissipate energy rapidly, but for "bang for bucks" I would be real tempted to try an achromat.

Customise the arm? - maybe , but it should cost more than a straight F5 swap, and the F5 isnt that ugly. Knife bearings, are not up to MC's as you acknowledged. Even if they are not audibly chattering, the energy in the arm is unlikely to be transmitted evenly across the frequency spectrum, and that is going to add a colouration. I guess it depends on our parameters. If I wanted to create a sumptious fashion piece, in slate or marble plinths, like the gorgeous ones Marco sent the link for, that was also near top audiophile, then I might try to keep that shiny chrome. If I was buying a £500 2nd hand deck for entry level, and looking where to spend the next £500 (ish) pounds, I would spend it on an F5 next.

I hope the irony came over as humour, not rancour. Martin Colloms was a source of a fair bit of stress in my time at PT

[walpurgis]

I would never use a cartridge with a brush/damper (or anything else) mounted onto it for the same reason (amongst others) as I would never use a dust sweep arm.

[Oldpinkman]

Yup a dust sweep arm was what mc used to discover (invent?) Slowing under load. Oh hsppy days

[Oldpinkman]

Geoff - I said it was a bandaid because it is an attempt to fix a problem rather than eliminate it. In the context of mass & compliance for cartridge arm matching its like the shock absorber on a car. It changes more than just the resonant frequency, it affects bandwidth differently. In terms of arm resonance it damps the sound and makes it dull - like damping a bass drum by putting a blanket in it. It doesn't address flexion. Again, the 774 had it and I always felt it dulled the detail. Maybe others find differently. I liked the sound best when I didn't need to use damping.

[SP10]

Rather than simply guess at what can be done with a Lenco, why not visit:
<http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php>
and have a good study of the work done on these TTs by others.

Also - whatever you may think of the man and/or his views - Arthur Salvadori puts a (seriously) reworked Lenco as the best there is. (He has heard most of them). Try Google.

I have heard one in slate with the latest PPTP, new bearings and a Wheaton Triplanar IV carrying a SPU. The rest of the system was close to world class about 10 years ago. The Lenco was at least up to the task!