Shure Stylus - any info on the VN4G?

[Reffc]

I've recently (lucky boy that I am) come into both a V15 III and a V15 IV. The III needs a new stylus but the IV comes with a pretty much unused VN4G. I understand from looking into Shure Styli in the past that this was what they described as a "broadcast standard conical stylus" and it's a 16 micron conical, so slightly smaller than the 16.3micron DL103 conical. It's often confused with the VN478E which was the 78rpm stylus for the V15.

Anyone have any experience of the VN4G, specifically is it a decent tracker and worth persevering with? Don't especially want to mount it I'd be better off replacing it with something like an Ed Saunders elliptical or a Jico SAS (pricey!).

Opinions welcome and encouraged!

[DSJR]

I have it on very good authority that the SAS styli are more than just "replacements" for the originals, as the Ed Saunders ones are (his V15 III stylus is all but identical sonically to the originals I'm told by someone who's compared them - he didn't like the SAS at all and I don't think it was because of setup either.........).

The V15 III does seem to depend rather a lot on the diamond and its finish (unless Shure did other suspension changes and didn't tell anyone). The HE and I believe the MR versions sounding far more spacious and all but sweet toned in comparison with the forthright, precise and slightly ungracious tones of the original VN35e in my experience.

As to the V15 IV series. This model removed the loading sensitivity of the earlier models, but seemed to cods-up the sound in the process. Extended listening shows it's all there, but not at all charming to listen through in some systems. Other cartridges of various types seem to expand on the basic presentation of the IVHE rather too much, and this includes all the other V15 series IMO and my example DOES have a good and little used stylus too...

The G version retains the compliance of the HE I believe, but it's only the diamond profile that's different. Give it a go and see what you think..... Recent discussions about certain classic ADC's show what and how the playback compromises can be jiggles to get a basically accurate playback, but with far more grace and charm (not really added colourations if you get my drift) to make playback so enjoyable. I keep a good original V15 III as a reality check, but for pure enjoyment from a vintage cartridge, one or other of my ADC's or the Sonus Blue gets fitted, as they're far more satisfying long-term.

[Reffc]

Thanks for the feedback David

My understanding is that whilst the Ed Saunders replacements are similar to the original diamond patterns, they do not use Beryllium cantilevers so will not sound the same. I had a V15 III with a Saunders replacement and to my ears it sounded harsher and not as musical as the original. The cantilever was redesigned for the IV and whilst still I think Beryllium, was a telescopic shape for lower inertia and better flux damping, so that was one of the reasons that the loading was altered. In theory it is the better design, but in practice, more people seem to prefer the sound of the III.

I haven't used a MkIV so I'll give it a go with the VN4G. If the compliance is the same, I'll load it at 1g VTF and about the same on bias and see whether that puts it.

I had several Sonus Blue Golds with the HE stylus and whilst very good indeed, the V15III with the VN35MR stylus fitted was the better cartridge (I listened to both). Not a lot in it though. The build quality of the Sonus was very so-so though.

[DSJR]

Woah there Paul

The V15 III featured laminated pole pieces which flattened the frequency response (I believe the better Ortofon fixed coil bodies do the same) but this was at the expense of some "glare" which many other flat-measuring cartridges lacked. I did think the cantilevers on the III were thin-wall aluminium though, although the V series used to be beryllium. My trusted ears (a sound engineer with decades of professional and domestic-audio experience the same age as me) bought a V15 III from me a couple of years ago. His cleaner damaged the cantilever, so he bought a Jico SAS. This changed the sound so it wasn't like a V15 III any more. This one also got broken and he then bought the Ed Saunders version, which he thought restored the cartridge to the way Shure intended it to sound - that's all I can say on this subject.. You may or may not be pleased to know that he's quietly sold his ton-up TD124 (too exposed for cleaning etc) and is now following the well trodden Techie route and starting with a tatty donor to experiment on, before finally fully rebuilding a brand new sealed example he also has, with MN bearing, PH supply, VA-OL feet etc etc and is looking eventually to tonearms and suitable cartridges - he has a massive collection of super-rare records, both vinyl and shellac and is to invest in a properly versatile phono stage. I await his updates with much interest...

Back to the V15 IV. If you basically like the overall balance of the IVG you have, then EsCo could probably fit a proper Paratrace diamond onto the existing cantilever. As regards my VMR with snapped cantilever, I'm certain the remains have now long gone, so I'd have to have an alternative grafted on to the original generator. I have plenty of alternatives right now and a limited pocket-depth, so any refurbs here is on the back burner for now..

I haven't used the Blue-Gold, since just after Martin Colloms raved about the original Blue, we found quality differences in some and took on Linn and Naim shortly after in 1977. Sonus was all but forgotten after this although we sold and supported ADC, despite their slight quality-control problems too. I also have a ZLM which, if carefully aligned, can sound stunning. The tracking force for the various samples I have varies all over the place, the ZLM liking 1.2g, my Sonus Blue around 0.9g and the XLM ranging from 0.7 to 1.3g depending on the model.

[Reffc]

Hmmm...yes I think you may be right there David, the Beryllium was a feature of the MkV and the MKVRs/VxMR (the latter being a re-badged Radio Shack version).

I think that the telescoping aluminium cantilever was used on the IV in that case.

Out of interest, JICO do make an elliptical stylus (as well as their SAS profile) on a Beryllium rod (solid) telescoping cantilever similar to the Shure MkV originals, so they ought to sound broadly similar although Shure used a Beryllium tube cantilever which was arguably superior.

As I understand it, the V15 was a high inductance design which used a combination of high compliance, cantilever and electrical resonance to achieve a flat frequency response. I don't think that the Ed Saunders version sounds the same at all, at least the ones I've had/heard but then I was comparing a Saunders elliptical with the VN35He and the Saunders sounded bright and edgy by comparison.

[DSJR]

Just like the original elliptical then

I don't think we had the MR version of the VN35 over here, but the VN35HE was so good and in my opinion, took the V15 III to a different plane entirely. Why the fugg did Shure stop? I bet the renewed and steady interest in vinyl and good vintage gear could NOW provide Shure with a steady income since hundreds of thousands of their cartridges are in use worldwide, and not just the M44 and SC series either! Maybe Jico should be given the plans to make their's exactly to spec, only with proper modern diamonds on?

I don't think one can obtain the berrylium tubes any more - I'm sure (sorry ) I read this somewhere...