Manchester Hi-Fi Show, Radisson Blu Hotel, Manchester Airport - 23/24th March

[Firebottle]

to Alan for giving the view from 'the other side'.

Presumably the majority of readers being in Russia and China is because that is where the new money is. Also a dearth of showrooms within easy reach?

Alan

[MartinT]

There's another angle here, to do with SPPV on an absolute scale: adopting great SPPV has given, for instance, Marco and myself systems that are not that far apart in cost but perform extremely well compared with many a £100k badge/bijou system demonstrated at shows (this seems to be a popular system value at shows for demo purposes). Are our systems good enough to represent the practical limit of what can be achieved for realistic money - in other words, do they represent great SPPV? In our eyes, yes (it's a very personal thing). Do they represent good SPPV for someone with a total budget of £1k to spend? No. SPPV is relative.

The second issue is important: is my system capable of the best sound that can be achieved? No. It is not the best that can be achieved no matter what the cost and I fully accept that there is a limit to performance that I can and do tolerate.

So what of the high end that is so readily dismissed here? I don't believe it's all cosmetic tat or badge-fi (much of it can hardly be the latter since no-one has heard of the brands I use, let alone brands like Devialet or DarTZeel). I have heard some truly great components that push the boundaries of what can be achieved if money is no object: the Continuum turntable and Wilson speakers, to give two examples. They may not represent high SPPV - how could they? - but they do represent the highest attainable achievement in sound quality that we are currently capable of realising.

That there are people who can afford such items is simple reality. That some of them don't appreciate what they have is of no consequence (but keeps the industry going). That a few of them really do is what is important. Look at the Greeks (before their financial collapse, anyway) who seem to have more high end enthusiasts than many other countries put together. These people have the means to buy very serious kit, but they live and breath music. Who are we to dismiss them?

Just look at some of the ACA members' systems, if you don't believe me:
http://www.aca.gr/

[MikeMusic]

Exactly! It's the principle that my whole system is based upon and also something we very much champion on AoS

Marco.

Useful if you are a cheapskate like me

[Wakefield Turntables]

Omg some series systems

[Marco]

Alan, thanks for the clarification, which makes sense. I understand exactly where you're coming from, although I do despair sometimes at what some people's criteria are for what is considered important when buying high-end audio equipment...

Martin, you make some very good points, many of which I agree with, although my position on the matter differs slightly from yours, which I'll explain later. Right now, work beckons

Marco.

[Mr. C]

I'd give the Devialet a miss if you are looking for real SQ, as a one box solution it is rather good, looks superb and the remote is a work of art, its just a shame the unit doesn't deliver the SQ which mimic's its admiring glaces.

The Dartzeel on the other hand is quality piece of equipment, I took one in PX a few years ago and now my son uses it in his system. Though the gay golden colour and silly badged knob's could be changed

You can make a £3000 system sound like a £10K if you pay care and attention to set up, placement and partnering equipment.

Most show systems will never deliver anywhere near their potential, however in a home environment and correctly set up it will be another matter.

Though it may make you laugh the number of six figures systems that have been installed here in the UK that could never make their true potential simply as the supplying dealer just wishes to 'Sell' the equipment. Set up leaves something to be desired.

At the show last week, four rooms consistently played at stupid o'clock volume levels that disrupted may other exhibitors over the whole weekend.

Some were trying to recreate a 70's disco with truly appalling boxes with cones show honed inside a badly designed box masquerading as speakers.

Others paired equipment that on the own may deliver quality sounds however as a paring produced a muddy mid range, a complete mis-timed mess that the old rockers seemed to love (as their hearing is shot ATC/PMC owners take a bow).

Another dealer was so desperate to demonstrate the SPL quotient of a particular brand of active speakers with partnering electronics that were no match for the potential of speakers it sounded like lashed up pub gig with 2Kw in a 200 square foot room with the mixing desk slides set to number 11, genuinely dire (straits, yep they played that as well)

One manufacturer stood out for services to non evasive ear wax removal (Olympic standard) taking over the crown held by naim for so many years.

Truly enlightening was the ability of that system to etch a (non spiral) groove in my tympanic membrane from 60 meters through 8 walls, 40 or so people plus the surrounding white noise generated by the above.

I am sure that what's left of the Russian KGB could fashion a sonic weapon of mass destruction from power amp and tweeters.


Seriously though the trade does themselves no favors when it descends into a pissing contest for how loud does mine go
Or makes a concerted effort to brand, market the room whilst getting the sound to an acceptable standard.

Meanwhile back in the bat cave

[Marco]

One manufacturer stood out for services to non evasive ear wax removal (Olympic standard) taking over the crown held by naim for so many years.

Truly enlightening was the ability of that system to etch a (non spiral) groove in my tympanic membrane from 60 meters through 8 walls, 40 or so people plus the surrounding white noise generated by the above.

I am sure that what's left of the Russian KGB could fashion a sonic weapon of mass destruction from power amp and tweeters.

Like I said, name and shame! Or at least PM me....

Marco.

[Mr. C]

Like I said, name and shame! Or at least PM me....

Marco.

The room Marco has been mentioned a couple times on this thread already.


One other interesting piece, a frequenter of shows popped in and spent the last hour with us on Sunday, was explaining about his system changes over the last year and mentioned he was contemplating purchasing a US spec (stereo) one of these for $15000

Desirable amplification

He contacted the manufacturer (Danish) to ask how much they would charge for the voltage swap, they turned round and offered him a new one for £15000 UKP around $23000 US retail price is $43000 go figure

Now where did I put my Robin Hood outfit

[RochaCullen]

But the broad decrease in the number of audio retail outlets coupled with a proliferation of brands (new and old) frequently not stocked in those retail outlets changes the face of reviewing somewhat.

A review should be used at best to shortlist products of interest to the reader, and the reader then visits a dealer who stocks the product to demonstrate it and see if it is worthy of being put on their own personal shortlist. Unfortunately, with a smaller pool of increasingly cash-strapped dealers out there, reviews help to create a shortlist of products a dealer will consider stocking.

In the past, a combination of review and dealer audition would help select the stock a dealer keeps, but increasingly the dealer takes the softer option of just following the reviews to dictate stocking policy.

This isn't so big a deal in the UK, because you are never going to have to travel more than about 150 miles to hear anything that's stocked in the UK (in theory at least). In the US, however, interested parties might now require a five hour flight to tick off one of the products on their shortlist these days.

This makes total sense to me. Since moving back to Ireland from London almost 5 years ago I began indulging in this hobby and the construction of what is a modest system. And I have to rely on the opinions of fellow AOSers, plus the reviews I read online. The reason I have to rely on opinions, which are not formed by my own ears, is because nearest retail outlet that stocks anything close to what I'd be interested in purchasing is 300km away.

So the demographic that exists on the Island of Britain is far different from other areas: disposable income levels have facilitated the sale of high end kit for as long as high end hifi kit has been available, which has meant the presence of dealerships and hence the ability of folks to try with their own ears.

This historical ability (I use the word historical to imply the current state is a one that has existed for quite some time, as opposed to places like china, where it is a new thing for folks to be indulging in the buying of expensive sound equipment) to buy high end hifi has resulted in a wealth of tried and tested equipment being available on the second hand market. So folks in Britain can, if they wish, seek out and listen to components such as vintage Tannoy speakers and Radford amps; whereas, folks in China might be able to read about such things, but could never really get their hands on them unless they go about personally importing them.

I understand therefore why folks, living in a land where they cannot possibly have an appellation of hifi history, because it is not tangible to them, want to hear only of kit that is reviewed positively, as it liberates them from the deliberation us folks seem to revel in and allows them focus on the kit they should (according the published voice of the cognoscente) actually purchase.

[RochaCullen]

Just read my post again. Appellation - appreciation.