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Thread: USB Cables, your experience and opinion?

  1. #21
    Join Date: Mar 2011

    Location: Windsor

    Posts: 91
    I'm James.

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    My ex-company produced the first generation of USB connector and wire harness for NASA. Look, it was for space travel and it was a cost no concern cable to ensure perfect communication over 100,000 miles suspended in friggin space. And you would expect it to be magnetically shielded, full of nano technology, gold plated connections, chrome shell to prevent corrosion, heat proof upwards of 1000 degrees to withstand solar storm.

    No. Cost price back then $5. If NASA can use standard USB cable for their space craft, I don't see a problem using it for our hi fi.

  2. #22
    Join Date: Sep 2012

    Location: East Anglia UK

    Posts: 1,219
    I'm Marc.

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    Try ths for a test to see if the cable makes a difference. Put a music file on a portable USB drive (.wav is probably easiest but it could be any file format really).

    Copy the file back to a computer using the cheap cable, then swap the cable for the more expensive one and copy the same file to the same computer (put it in a different folder or give it a slightly different name).

    Load both files in to a wave editor (eg Audacity), and invert the phase of one of the tracks. If the files are not the same you will hear 'something' (the difference between the 2 files), presumably caused by the cable as they come from the same source. If the files have remained the same the tracks will 'null' (ie phase cancel each other) you'll hear nothing and the meters will show nothing. If they null the conclusion would therefore be that the cable has made no difference.

    You could also use this method to determine whether Ethernet cable sounds different to WiFi ethernet. ;-)

  3. #23
    Join Date: Feb 2012

    Location: Falun, Sweden

    Posts: 2,245
    I'm Mike.

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    I appreciate all of your efforts to prove to me that there are no difference whatsoever.
    However you are comparing apples with pears when stating examples with file transfer and saying it's the same cable/method as for Audio...

    Audio over USB is a streaming protocol. It has got no error correction, and only basic error detection. Besides, the issue is mostly not that the bits aren't in the correct order or magnitude, it's the fact that they are delivered a little to early or too late. (=jitter)

    All cables HAVE some form of properties, whether electrical, magnetical or otherwise. These properties affect signal transfer in some way or another, whether you like/believe it or not!

    However, the question to you all, was:
    Is it worth paying extra for cables designated as Audio USB cables and at what point, in your opinion, does the cost no longer match the increase in audible performance?

    Suggestions received so far has been good and well thought out!
    Thanks for your input!

    Regards //Mike

  4. #24
    Join Date: Feb 2012

    Location: Falun, Sweden

    Posts: 2,245
    I'm Mike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowlf View Post
    heat proof upwards of 1000 degrees to withstand solar storm.
    Damnit, what kind of cable can do that?

    Regards //Mike

  5. #25
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Coventry

    Posts: 3,039
    I'm Will.

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    I don't think there is any difference between USB cables with regard to data transfer, the data is either successfully transmitted or not. But I do believe there can be differences with regard to secondary effects introduced by the USB cable, galvanic isolation, RF interference etc...

    I have an M-DAC which has the rather handy capability of a 'bit perfect' test, using pre defined sample files, both 16/44.1 and 24/96 are provided. I can achieve a bit perfect feed from my SBTouch into the M-DAC using a cheapo USB cable, and also with my £35 Kimber 1/2M USB cable.

    However the Kimber sounds better, so I have to put this down to secondary effects, I've even bought a USB isolator, but I'd be hard pushed to say if that's given me any improvements...but as it's there, and it doesn't degrade the sound, I'll leave it in place for now

    Mind you I don't think I'd spend much more than £35 on one...
    Cheers, Will

  6. #26
    Join Date: Apr 2011

    Location: Kingston, Surrey, UK

    Posts: 774
    I'm Alex.

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    Back to the original question, is it worth spending hundreds on a USB cable?. I remain convinced that this would be one of the worst places to spend this type of money in terms of improving the sound and VFM. Spending it on improving almost any other component or the room it is installed in will get you further.

    If you are trying to improve a digital front-end, spend the money on a re-clocking DAC with better jitter reduction/rejection. Can someone explain why an asynchronous transfer of data from the PC to a buffer in the DAC, from where the timebase is effectively regenerated under the control of a local oscillator should be affected by interface jitter?. Personally I think that asynchronous transfer is a must, otherwise the DAC's clock will be swinging about trying to adjust to the native data rate and will be upset by jitter arising from the source or the interface. When using asynchronous transfers, all the DAC has to do is ensure that there are no buffer under or overruns, and clock out the data locally.

    Any electrical or optical interface transfers data as an analogue waveform, but as long as the USB packets can be transmitted and decoded without error, then the data IS the same. The standard defines a bit error rate in the order of of 1x 10^-10, which is low enough to be considered negligible for audio purposes, and this doesn't require a fabulously expensive or high-specification cable. If there are audible differences I would expect that they arise from ground or VBUS +5v noise, but again this isn't really a cable issue - look at improving the source, getting a DAC with a better USB transceiver and/or one that uses that along with other strategies to improve it's the noise and phase jitter immunity. Changing the cabling is going to have little to no effect on these problems or deficiencies where they may exist.

    Ok, if everything else is beyond worthwhile improvement, then by all means, but it is touching up the gilding on the lily IMHO.

    Cheers,
    Alex
    Last edited by AlexM; 15-01-2013 at 15:12.
    Technics SL1210| Jelco SA-750| Benz Micro ACE SM MC| Squeezebox Touch/MCRU linear PSU | Cambridge Audio 851C | High Resolution Music Streamer II+ / Linestreamer+ | Raspberry Pi 2/IQ-Audio DAC+ / Max2Play | Conrad-Johnson ET3 Control Amplifier| Conrad-Johnson LP125sa KT120 Power Amplifier| Avalon NP Evo 2.0 Speakers| Cardas Audio Quadlink-5C Speaker Cables and Interconnects| Finite Elemente Pagode Signature E-14 equipment support

  7. #27
    Join Date: Apr 2011

    Location: Kingston, Surrey, UK

    Posts: 774
    I'm Alex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowlf View Post
    My ex-company produced the first generation of USB connector and wire harness for NASA. Look, it was for space travel and it was a cost no concern cable to ensure perfect communication over 100,000 miles suspended in friggin space. And you would expect it to be magnetically shielded, full of nano technology, gold plated connections, chrome shell to prevent corrosion, heat proof upwards of 1000 degrees to withstand solar storm.

    No. Cost price back then $5. If NASA can use standard USB cable for their space craft, I don't see a problem using it for our hi fi.
    Aaahhh, but what do NASA know about Hi-Fi? bugger all!
    Technics SL1210| Jelco SA-750| Benz Micro ACE SM MC| Squeezebox Touch/MCRU linear PSU | Cambridge Audio 851C | High Resolution Music Streamer II+ / Linestreamer+ | Raspberry Pi 2/IQ-Audio DAC+ / Max2Play | Conrad-Johnson ET3 Control Amplifier| Conrad-Johnson LP125sa KT120 Power Amplifier| Avalon NP Evo 2.0 Speakers| Cardas Audio Quadlink-5C Speaker Cables and Interconnects| Finite Elemente Pagode Signature E-14 equipment support

  8. #28
    Join Date: Feb 2009

    Location: Near Rome, Italy

    Posts: 40
    I'm Attilio.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WAD62 View Post
    I don't think there is any difference between USB cables with regard to data transfer, the data is either successfully transmitted or not. But I do believe there can be differences with regard to secondary effects introduced by the USB cable, galvanic isolation, RF interference etc...

    I have an M-DAC which has the rather handy capability of a 'bit perfect' test, using pre defined sample files, both 16/44.1 and 24/96 are provided. I can achieve a bit perfect feed from my SBTouch into the M-DAC using a cheapo USB cable, and also with my £35 Kimber 1/2M USB cable.

    However the Kimber sounds better, so I have to put this down to secondary effects, I've even bought a USB isolator, but I'd be hard pushed to say if that's given me any improvements...but as it's there, and it doesn't degrade the sound, I'll leave it in place for now

    Mind you I don't think I'd spend much more than £35 on one...

    Maybe the reason the over priced but pretty cable sounds better, is Expectation Bias.
    I don't believe you would be able to tell the difference in a blind test. Between two well made cables one cheap, and the other expensive.
    Having said that £10 to £35 is ok. Because at least you know you are getting a well made USB cable from a good manufacturer.

    More on Expectation Bias
    http://nwavguy.blogspot.it/2012/04/what-we-hear.html
    Please read this, it could save you a lot of money.
    Last edited by attilio7; 15-01-2013 at 18:02.


    Only Music Matters, Everything Else Is Just Noise


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  9. #29
    Join Date: Mar 2011

    Location: Windsor

    Posts: 91
    I'm James.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexM View Post
    Aaahhh, but what do NASA know about Hi-Fi? bugger all!
    That's pretty true. All their comms were in mono!


    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTV View Post
    Damnit, what kind of cable can do that?

    Regards //Mike

    Lol I would expect $300 hi fi grade USB cables to do that though.

    However like all connectors, USB connectors lose traction and the pins can be damaged with persistent plug in and out. The 4 pins could also shift out of tolerance inside the cavity. The lead plating on the pins are quite thin and easy to peel so once the copper get exposed and damaged, you can pretty much write it off. I would just buy a new $5-10 one to replace.

  10. #30
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Coventry

    Posts: 3,039
    I'm Will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by attilio7 View Post
    Maybe the reason the over priced but pretty cable sounds better, is Expectation Bias.
    I don't believe you would be able to tell the difference in a blind test. Between two well made cables one cheap, and the other expensive.
    Having said that £10 to £35 is ok. Because at least you know you are getting a well made USB cable from a good manufacturer.

    More on Expectation Bias
    http://nwavguy.blogspot.it/2012/04/what-we-hear.html
    Please read this, it could save you a lot of money.
    If I wanted to be patronised I'd have bought a shop

    So you're saying I'm suffering from 'selective expectation bias', given that I found no improvement after adding a £30 USB galvanic isolator...my 'expectation bias' must be be USB cable specific!!!
    Cheers, Will

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