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Thread: Pet Hates........or FFS

  1. #2601
    Join Date: Apr 2017

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    But what about the millions of people like me who enjoy gambling and don't have any negative issues with it? Should our pleasure be curtailed just because of a small minority who can't cope with it? At what point does a caring society become a nanny state, its citizens spending their entire lives as helpless children being protected from themselves at all times and from everything?
    Yes I dont judge you on that basis nor do I wish to sound holier than thou. It is a legal activity and its your money. There are people who have a social side around it and put a fiver on a horse over a cup of tea. I cant say they have a problem.

    However and its a big however, gambling addiction problems have gone exponential. Where is the thin end of the wedge when talking about gambling? Many people do have a problem and there are methods of gambling designed to be highly addictive. Im talking in particular about online gambling, the FOBTs and new styles of fruit machines.

    Smoking had a free pass for too long and drinking alcohol is a real problem in society. They are legalised drugs and gambling is actually one of them when people understand how the craving for escape and dopamine can fuel a gambling addict. Its much more complex but thats the general idea in that the money plays a lesser role in the mind control process. A devil and an angel above the shoulders is how popular culture tries to understand the brain.

    Of course the tax raked in means the government have a vested interest in keeping it going. I have realised that people do need protecting so there is a line to be drawn somewhere and thats where the debate must start.

    I dont advocate a nanny state in all areas. I just think there needs to be a greater realisation about the dangers of gambling and the misery it causes.

    Personally I would heavily regulate it away from the high street and I would ban certain types of gambling.

    Best wishes
    Martin
    Last edited by Minstrel SE; 22-01-2018 at 19:04.

  2. #2602
    montesquieu Guest

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    I've been in Vegas maybe half a dozen times, always for work (assorted technology conferences).

    The first time I was there I bet $20 at the tables. It was gone in seconds. I realised that the possible losses were limitless. Machines were everywhere including screens built into the top of the bar. I was actually a bit horrified by the whole business and in all the trips I've made there since, I've never bet another $.

    Thankfully I've never really been a gambler of any sort but that doesn't mean I'm unfamiliar with it - I watched my brother give his wages at the bookies in his apprentice days, before he decided that he preferred pissing his money away at the pub away rather than handing it over at a glass counter. (Compulsive behavior seldom restricts itself to one kind of compulsion). He started young (at school) and used to get me to go in and claim his winnings in case they wouldn't pay out. (They were happy to take his money well underage but he wasn't sure they'd give him any back). And no, the story doesn't have a happy ending.

    Gambling is a mug's game - the house always wins, eventually - and I would bet that half - possibly way more than half - of those who engage in it regularly have some kind of problem surrounding it. There aren't bookies on every small parade of shops just to take bets on the Grand National.

    I'd be happy to see it regulated to a minimum across the board, while FOBT should be banned as a matter of urgency, I've seen them and the sad bastards who play them, this is surely one of the things government should be for, to protect idiots from themselves.

  3. #2603
    Join Date: Feb 2013

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    I'm Grant.

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    Not really a gambler. Haven't had a bet in 40 years I guess so no issues, but Ive seen what it can do to folk and it's just as dangerous as drugs. Fobt or puggies as we call them used to be very restricted by bet and winnings including % of total take. I take it that's been drastically altered. They were potentially bad enough in old days but must be a red rag to a bull now.

    Like drugs folk will do it so banning won't work . Legal controls need to be stronger but of course the folk who benefit most from their current existence, control the lawmakers so what chance eh?
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    Grant .... ؠ ......Don't be such a big girl's blouse

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  4. #2604
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Everyone always wants to ban things these days. Like that has ever been the answer to anything in the whole recorded history of mankind.

    Attempting to advance a culture and civilisation by banning things, that doesn't really make any sense to me.
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  5. #2605
    Join Date: Apr 2017

    Location: Cheshire UK

    Posts: 843
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Everyone always wants to ban things these days. Like that has ever been the answer to anything in the whole recorded history of mankind.

    Attempting to advance a culture and civilisation by banning things, that doesn't really make any sense to me.
    But its where you stand on issues like hiding cigarettes behind shutters. You cant tell me that having a cigarette or stiff whisky is healthy.

    I find it quite disturbing that cigarette smoking was allowed to take hold on an industrial scale. Surely there comes a point where people need protecting from the predators that will sell us anything including gambling. Gambling has left people homeless, bankrupt and under trains!

    I think its beyond a freedom of choice issue where things are clearly harmful. Nobody is offering life changing odds on Manchester United vs the Grannies 11.

    I know what you are getting at and it makes me sound like a real " I dont agree with that in the workplace" character. However I have learnt that people need protecting from the gambling industry.

  6. #2606
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minstrel SE View Post
    But its where you stand on issues like hiding cigarettes behind shutters.
    The people who wanted that wanted a complete ban. I think it is idiocy but then what can you do? Everyone dies of something. 3000 people die on the roads each year in the UK alone but we don't ban cars because that would be impractical. Are we going to ban dangerous sports like skiing, snowboarding, mountaineering, sailing? Lots of death and suffering there too.

    Given that millions of people enjoy gambling, alcohol and all sorts of other 'things that are bad for you' in moderation and with no adverse effects* are pretty much an indicator that the problem lies with those who are adversely affected and that is the problem that needs to be addressed rather than the gambling (or whatever) which is just a manifestation or symptom.

    But that would be complex and difficult so no-one goes there. Easier just to ban things. A knee jerk reaction, understandable in some ways, but it has stood us in such bad stead for so long is it not time to look at an alternative approach?

    * People who don't gamble are often unaware that gambling, even if, over time you are losing money; can be enjoyable. If you look at it as a time spent having fun/cost equation it is no different from any other leisure activity. Going to a theme park for example. Which I've done and was not worth it. Expensive and boring. But I'm not out to ban theme parks because of that. I know plenty of people who love them, why deny them it?

    Tattoos, pretty much the same. Plenty of skint people with several grands worth of tats. Should we ban that, stop these idiots wasting their money? Who gets to decide who is the idiot and who are the smart people? It all starts getting very difficult once you start to look at the unintended consequences. Sadly that seems to be the way we are going nonetheless.
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  7. #2607
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

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    I'm Grant.

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    Banning things is not the way forward. Like bombs you need to be smart. Also you just have to accept some folk just cannot be protected from themselves
    Regards,
    Grant .... ؠ ......Don't be such a big girl's blouse

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: democracy simply-doesn't-work
    .... ..... ...... ...... ................... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
    FIIO K7 BT, M11 PLUS, BTR7, KA5 - OPPO BDP-103D - PANASONIC UB450 - PANASONIC 4K ULTRA HD TV - PIXEL 6 - AVANTREE LR BLUETOOTH - 2* X600 SOUNDCORE - HEADPHONES INCLUDE, FIIO, NURAPHONES', FOCAL, OPPO, BOSE, CAMBRIDGE, BOWER & WILKINS, DEVIALET, MARSHALL, SONY, MITCHELL & JOHNSTON - 2*ZBOOK'S- MERCURY BD ROM, ROON, QOBUZ, TIDAL, PLEX, CYBERLINK, JRIVER - MULTI HDD'S -

    Oh my god! There's nothing wrong with the bidet is there?

    “Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test. It is the glory of Lincoln that, having almost absolute power, he never abused it, except on the side of mercy".

    “You see these dictators on their pedestals, surrounded by the bayonets of their soldiers and the truncheons of their police ... yet in their hearts there is unspoken fear. They are afraid of words and thoughts: words spoken abroad, thoughts stirring at home -- all the more powerful because forbidden -- terrify them. A little mouse of thought appears in the room, and even the mightiest potentates are thrown into panic.”

    "You don't have free will. You have the appearance of free will.”

    “There's a war out there, old friend. A world war. And it's not about who's got the most bullets. It's about who controls the information. What we see and hear, how we work, what we think... it's all about the information!”


    ***SMILE, BE HAPPY***

  8. #2608
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

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    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by struth View Post
    Banning things is not the way forward. Like bombs you need to be smart.
    Indeed, although for me, some things are outright evil (such as I highlighted earlier with legalised extortion, disguised as loans), and so banning them would, in the long term, do more good than harm, whilst simultaneously putting systems into place that address the real source of the problem. I'll go into that later.

    Often in life there has to be some pain before there's gain. There is no 'perfect' solution to any problem, and which sees no-one losing out. Someone always will, so all you can do is get the balance of who loses and who gains, right (and fair) as much as possible.

    In terms of the poor folks who use payday loans, and such like, perhaps they wouldn't need to if the government didn't screw them left, right and centre, and helped them to LIVE, rather than continually making it more difficult? And I'm talking from ground roots level up. Then, they might not have to seek the 'assistance' of unscrupulous 'high street' lenders, or back street loan sharks (the former simply being a legalised version of the latter).

    Therefore, for me, the best way to deal with these problems is a combination of control and education, whilst helping those more who need help. So how do we offer that help, and get to the source of the problem? Well, first you have to understand what the *real* problem is, before you can tackle it, and for me in terms of the gambling issue, both Martin and Tom touched on it earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by Minstrel SE
    Smoking had a free pass for too long and drinking alcohol is a real problem in society. They are legalised drugs and gambling is actually one of them when people understand how the craving for escape and dopamine can fuel a gambling addict.
    And:

    Quote Originally Posted by Montesquieu
    I watched my brother give his wages at the bookies in his apprentice days, before he decided that he preferred pissing his money away at the pub away rather than handing it over at a glass counter. (Compulsive behavior seldom restricts itself to one kind of compulsion)...
    I believe that the root of the problem is compulsive behaviour, which some people are more susceptible to than others, and that in turn makes them much more likely to become addicted to things, including gambling. On top of that, is the issue, as Martin mentioned, of "craving for escape". "Escape" from what, then?

    I think it's pretty obvious that in most instances the people to whom that applies are seeking to escape from the daily drudge of simply trying to survive, who 'live' a pitiful existence, and who simply can't escape from 'the system', which on virtually all levels, is fundamentally designed to penalise them and reward the rich.

    Address that sorry state of affairs, whilst also helping and educating those with compulsive behaviour issues, and I believe that many of the problems associated with gambling would be alleviated, thus leaving the majority to enjoy their pastime in peace, and with those susceptible to compulsive behaviour, experiencing less adverse effects from their addiction.

    Payday loans would also be a thing of the past if 'the system', as mentioned, was fundamentally altered to make for a fairer, more equal society, and *control*, at government level, was put into place to prevent immoral lending to our most vulnerable citizens, by drastically capping the level of interest rates, chargeable by loan companies.

    Most is easier said than done, of course, but we could certainly do much more than is currently being done to help matters, that's for sure!

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  9. #2609
    Join Date: Apr 2017

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    I'm Martin.

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    Yes you see things very clearly Marco.

    It is an escape from the daily drudge and the system fundamentally designed to penalise them and reward the rich. Its an escape from depression, perceived boredom, self loathing and hopelessness. An all too brief escape or shot in the vein before reality dawns that all the money has gone with no food in the cupboards.

    Its been scientifically proven that a problem gambler gets the same chemical hit from a near miss as from a win....more so in some cases as its been shown that they play for the lows as well...love me... punish me.... hate me....cheat me in a real trance and rollercoaster of emotions. Its seeking those emotions to feel anything other than numb or depressed.

    Compulsive gamblers are wired in a certain way but the addiction takes hold in a form of mind control. The body craves gambling and it sends chemical urges around the body. You might not see the body get the shakes but its a similar process Add the thoughts of chasing lucky clover and of course its all going to come back tomorrow in the big one....not! An addict will gamble it all away again as its more often about the feeling of playing

    It affects footballers, lawyers and people from all walks of life which is how complex the addiction is. It is mainly a tax on the poor and disaffected.

    The problem I have is the level of advertising and machines designed to be highly addictive with a spin every few seconds. The gambling dens werent really built on careful bets and controlled gambling.

    Help and education is good but there is a responsibility to tackle this at the source of the problem. Its no good them saying "gamble responsibly" as gambling does not come under the definition of responsible even if we are just gambling a pound.
    Last edited by Minstrel SE; 23-01-2018 at 15:29.

  10. #2610
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Sorry but that is hokey nonsense. 38% of people in this country gamble on a weekly basis. That's about 25 million people. Only a tiny minority of those get into issues with it, and they probably have mental health issues in any case, so they would be getting into issues regardless.

    I'm sure you do get the odd mug who loses everything because he doesn't know when to stop. That's called learning a lesson. He hasn't lost a limb or anything, just money, so hardly something worth wringing our hands over when there is no shortage of life and death problems in the world.

    The problem starts with people who feel sorry for the mug and offer him counselling and a whole suite of similar taxpayer-funded bollocks. Agree with him when he blames the evil gambling barons for tempting him in and encouraging him. Eventually, thanks to the counselling, he will come to realise that it was not his fault at all and there is no lesson for him to learn. And the child will remain a child.
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