Do 'boutique' cables make a difference?

[Marco]

Ok, who's got something novel and interesting to say on this subject?

Let's hear it!

Marco.

[Lowrider]

Interesting post on AA:

Quite the opposite. It has nothing to do with safety grounds. By 'ground loop' I mean 'loops of ground paths'. That includes PS transformer primary winding parasitics through the power return for example. Different AC cords have different frequency dependent impedances, especially above the audio band. Interconnects have differing ground path impedances. When a system has multiple sources the interconnects and power cords for all of them form loops between the central device, normally a pre-amp, and the wall outlet. Unless the source switching device is designed to lift unused sources and their associated grounds (as does mine) the result is complex and numerous path loops of varying frequency dependent impedances randomly oriented in space. Changing a power cord alters these relationships.

THIS is where any examination concerning the claim of audible differences between power cords should start. Starting at Niagara Falls is little better than a smug unconsidered dismissal unworthy of any claim to the scientific high ground. It's also tacitly based on presumptions valid in a world which no longer exists, before power grids and air were saturated with man-made HF energy. It's a dim platitude.

Note, none of the above says anything about the audibility of AC cords (or use with scopes, a letter BTW which passes every imaginable sniff test for a phoney setup), only about the proper way to examine claims and ever-depressing 'less filling/tastes great' form of analysis we usually get.

[WikiBoy]

Ok, who's got something novel and interesting to say on this subject?

Let's hear it!

Marco.

It is all about interface and is largely simple LCR reaction within the context of useage. After interface there is influence. Sorry to go all metaphysical but this is the Yin and Yang of audio design. You take account of how something *fits* into its electronic environment and how something directly *influences* its electronic environment. Having created that *system* topology then how does it fit into / influence the listeners energetic environment and how those interface. That is what we want and need music for. Very little study and understanding of this and it is fundemental. So cables are just one thing, when you design you have case, pcb, layout connundrums of at least the same intensity. And how do you solve it, well by listening with your heart your brain and your body, the ears are just an addenda. Three basic elements in music 1. does it move your body / dance / airguitar 2. does it move your mind / intellect / score reading etc 3. does it move your soul / emotions / the little hairs on the back of your neck. It should do all three but humans are usually out of balance and focus on seperate aspects and not the holistic experience. We tend to be more out of balance listening to hi-fi as we take intellectual stances but music lovers and musicologists do the same thing worse than we do. And so the wars begin be it Bruckner v Mozart or cable believers v non believers or foot tappers v etherial dreamers. Take a stance and have a fight, all largely irrelevent.

Go to www.nene-valley-audio.com and link to interview it will show this different view point.

Also there is this specifically about cable, both were written in the eary 90's and are valid now

THE GENESIS REPORT: INDUSTRY AND EXPERT FEEDBACK

By publishing The Genesis Report, QED has returned the Great Cable Debate to its scientific roots. CYBERFi asked a number of leading amplifier manufacturers for their response to the conclusions of QED's investigation. Representatives from Naim, NVA and LFD join cables expert Malcolm Hawksford of Essex University to case a critical eye over the new white paper, assessing its findings in the light of their own research

RICHARD DUNN of NVA says:

The report is both right and wrong. In my view high resistance is not the issue. What determines the way that cables affect system performance to a far greater degree is the output impedance of an amplifier. The question of cable inductance, capacitance and resistance has to be considered as an integral part of the amplifier/cable/loudspeaker interfacing equation. Amplifiers such as NVA's, Naim's and Exposure's which do no have a Zobell network on the output, are sensitive to the effects of capacitance and inductance. Transistor amplifiers with Zobell networks or output filtering and valve amplifiers with transformer coupling on their outputs are not so sensitive. If an amplifier has negligible output impedance (ie the damping factor is high), the effect of relatively high cable resistance is minimal. Our LS1 cable is a fairly high resistance cable, but our amplifiers have a 0.0065 ohm output impedance, so there are no ill effects.

Cable directionality is a audible phenomenon. Indeed cable performance can vary with even more obscure factors than this. I have found with solid core cable it is possible to create directionality over a period of time. It's as if the cable beds-in when used aligned one way. If you then reverse one of the cables it can sound worse. But if left, it will bed-in once more over a period of time.

I agree that the cable dielectric is more important than the conductor purity. However if you coat a copper cable in silver, the change will affect performance as much as any change in dielectric material. The dielectric is know to affect cable capacitance more than any other factor with the exception of using Litz construction. Output transformers and Zobell networks hide the deficiencies of cables. So the danger is the wrong cable solution can be prescribed. high capacitance cables apply a cure to the bad audible effects of Zobell networks and output transformers, but as in medicine, it would be much preferable to not have the condition in the first place!

I welcome QED's report. The use of scientific techniques to help evaluate cable is to be applauded. My concern is whether the tests have been carried out in sufficient depth. Individual manufacturers are usually the best source of recommendation for suitable cable to partner their products. Ultimately the big issues concerning cable are the same as those affecting systems. It's all about interfaces from the start of the recording chain to the final link when playing back through a hi-fi system.

[Marco]

Antonio and Richard,

Two excellent posts. I'll get to those tomorrow!

However, I really like and totally agree with this statement in particular:

It's all about interfaces from the start of the recording chain to the final link when playing back through a hi-fi system.

Oh yes indeedy

Unfortunately with one thing and another the day has just flown by...

Until later.

Marco.

[Mike]

I have only one thing to say on this subject:

Cables of all kinds make a difference.

!

[Steve Toy]

Indeed they do.

[Marco]

LOL. I of course agree, chaps, but this is hardly the in-depth emotive discussion I was hoping for

I'll get my teeth into it when I've woken up properly!

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

Now, lets see how this one is going to pan out:

The subjectivist camp will say mains leads and interconnects definitely make a difference because the results obtained from trying different types are quite unpredictable and yet repeatable in any given system. I'll add that when a number of discerning people are in the room hearing a given demonstration they may all hear the same changes taking place but disagree as to which they prefer, just as they may if a box change was being effected. Others here will come along to agree with me, especially on a forum like this that is rather aptly called (even if I say so myself) The Art of Sound. The issue here is that differences heard as opposed to differences seen require the use of memory and here lies the rub...

The so-called objectivists will come along and say, in rather condescending and sneering tones, that we are all a bit loopy and imagining things and that our memory may be playing tricks on us, even if the time elapsed between A and B is only a minute or so. They would add that we'd hear precisely bugger-all under certain laboratory conditions which would probably resemble the Ingram electric shocks experiment and involve the use of blindfolds. In their argument they'd conveniently ignore my use of unpredictable and repeatable above so I'd have to remind them.

They would then demand proof in the form of some kind of trial by ordeal (electric shocks and blindfolds) and not to be all-stick-and-no-carrot they'd offer a million dollars to anyone who could notice any differences while being tortured. Someone else would come along with something anecdotal and empirical to support the subjectivist argument, the objectivists would become more cynical, condescending and sneering, point out that their experiences don't count as they haven't been made to suffer in the process of making their discovery and a circular argument would then descend into a bit of a bunfight.

And our forum will resemble all the others.

[Filterlab]

At the end of the day, Ashley will do his 'thang' the same as we'll do ours...

Yes, and this is all the 'art' of sound. Whether one is a measurements type person or a play about and see what happens type person, it's still all about achieving a final goal - high quality sound.

Regardless of how it's arrived at (and everyone has differences in paths taken) it's what all hi-fi lovers want.

[Steve Toy]

Whether one is a measurements type person or a play about and see what happens type person, it's still all about achieving a final goal - high quality sound.

I would say that anyone relying on perfect measurements alone is not going to get a particularly involving and musically insightful sound. I've heard a few systems that have impressive measurements, tick all the right sonic boxes yet manage to sound rather sterile and matter-of-fact.

Good kit does measure well but that which gives insight into a gifted musician, say an acoustic guitarist or cellist and his/her ability to create a sense of rhythmic patterns, does so by revealing not just exactly when to hit a particular note but also to reveal variations in how hard or soft notes are struck in relation to each other. It's mostly about timing and addressing issues of energy transfer (basic laws of physics.)

Playing musical instruments is an art and capturing their expression through recorded electro-mechanical means is also an art.