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Thread: Verus Vs Rim Drive

  1. #1
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: Cricklewood

    Posts: 9,074
    I'm ILOB.

    Default Verus Vs Rim Drive

    Last night my friend Vic came around as we had been planning to evaluate these two versions of Idler Drive for a while. It was a great evening, but ultimately I came away a bit frustrated by this as the leap from belt drive to rim drive was a big leap! I suspect our findings are do to belt slippage on the VPI rim drive. Anyway please read the review and bear in mind the VPI rim drive does a great job, it just that the Verus does it better.

    Teres Verus Drive vs VPI Rim Drive

    Idler drive systems have been around for years. There have been many variations including Garrard, Lenco, EMT, Thorens and Rek-O-Cut. Generally this type of drive has had issues with rumble, but over time due to good plinth design principles, people have managed to work through them and take these turntables to heights no one really knew they were capable of. This has sparked a whole field of DIY interest in Idler drive, as for very little outgoing, it is possible to get extremely high performance.

    It was only a matter of time that mainstream Manufactures came to this realization & started to introduce this type of drive into their ranges. Both Teres and VPI have introduced their own variations.

    The major issue with Idler drives is rumble from the motor reaching the platter. Good isolation & mass plinths can decrease this. Both Teres and VPI use different means to overcome this issue. The Verus uses a low noise, slowly rotating DC Motor with precision ground O-ring, while the VPI uses belts & a huge flywheel. The Verus is unusual insofar as the motor drives the platter direct: there is no interim idler, belts or springs……….. just a pulley on the motor shaft that rests against the platter by force of gravity.

    A few months ago I heard the 401 on a slate deck using the Terminator arm; I was very impressed with the sound. Vic (of Trans-Fi Audio) also uses a similar set up with Terminator tonearm plus a ZYX R 100H Cartridge. Initially I was going to get a 401 but decided to get the Super Scoutmaster due to its better bearing and platter. For me it seemed to make sense if I was going down the VPI route to stick with the same design.

    Frustrations

    I was initially told that all the equipment would take 6 weeks (Super Scout SDS Mini Feet and Duel Rim drive Motor). It took 10 weeks due to VPI staff holidays I do not mind waiting the extra time just want more accurate information.

    Vic also experienced rumble from his Verus motor which was traced to an uneven O-ring. Teres give instructions on how to even this out & it took him several goes to finally create a rumble-free ring!

    The VPI rim drive is easy to set up and presented no real issues. The Motor has the new belts and feet recently introduced. It now takes less time to settle and there are no issues with movement which was a problem on the first units. I hope VPI continues to pass on improvements to the Rim drive as it gradually develops.

    The Set-up

    Super Scoutmaster Turntable with the old lead TNT platter.
    Trans-Fi Terminator Linear Tracking Arm ZXY R100H Cartridge
    SDS power supply.
    ZXY R100H Cartridge
    Whest PS30DT
    YS Audio A2SE
    PS Audio P500 SAC KT88 Glowmaster power amplifier
    and Wharfedale Opus 3 Loudspeakers.

    Teres Verus drive with power Supply
    VPI Rim drive with SDS

    The Verus uses a 40 Watt 3 phase synchronous DC motor with a very sophisticated power supply. More details behind the Teres design philosophy can be found here:

    http://www.teresaudio.com/manuals/teres_speed_tech.pdf

    The Rim Drive uses a dual flywheel motor to turn the drive around. This has two motors driving a flywheel which the rim runs off. It's powered by the SDS which allows control up to 100 of a Hertz.

    Spinning The Vinyl

    Finally…..what it’s all about!

    We played a few tracks LPs that Vic brought in and then some records that I know well.

    With the VPI motor spinning the platter, Vic put on Massive Attack & immediately felt the bass sounded boomy & lacked definition. Not being too familiar with my setup, he suspected it was the bass reflex speakers.
    Similarly with Sade, which has some very tuneful rich bass, Vic felt the texture he was used to wasn’t there.

    We then substituted the VPI for the Verus. This had to be a bit of a bodge as we were dismayed to learn the overhang was not sufficient to reach the platter. We had to use a book & create our own ‘Leaning Tower of Pisa’ to create contact! Hardly ideal! We felt at the time this arrangement would not do the Verus justice. VPI owners beware!

    In spite of the awkward setup, we instantly both felt the bass was cleaner on the Verus. This was obvious no matter what genre of music we played through the system. But it was not only the bass that improved………..also the top end keyboards were cleaner, as were guitar notes, allowing you to clearly hear what technique the musician was using. Al DiMeola’s percussive picking really stood out in a way I never heard before on Egyptian Danza!
    On the Nick Drake Cello Song, the bongos were real. You could hear everything Nick was doing on guitar, and the cello came through with no sense of overhang. In contrast, the VPI rim was slightly darker & not quite as focused.

    Later on I played Metrolopolis by Dream Theater. A piece of music I know particularly well. The kick drums seemed more powerful while the guitar riffs were clearer.

    Similarly, with Vics records the rich texture on the bass of Sade was restored. There is a lot of background detail relating to percussive elements & hi-hats that were just audible with the VPI, but with the Verus, they came right to the front.

    The bass on Massive Attack’s SLY, which was bloated before and Vic attributed to the speakers, suddenly had a percussive start to it, a textured middle & distinctive end! These were not subtle differences either, but like night & day.

    Conclusion

    I came in thinking that there would not be a lot of difference between the Verus and Rim drive but have to reluctantly admit, I prefer the Verus in terms of sound. I think for my turntable, the Rim drive looks a better solution, but in sonic terms the Verus takes you closer to the real event. To be quite honest, I wanted the VPI Rim Drive to win just for my own piece of mind. I am still happy with my rim drive and will not be getting rid of it easily outperforms my belt drive, but if I was to do it all again I would go down a different path!
    Last edited by John; 13-01-2009 at 18:56. Reason: Just some reformatting of headings
    Loves anything from Pain of Salvation to Jeff Buckley to Django to Sarasate to Surinder Sandhu to Shawn Lane to Nick Drake to Rush to Beth Hart to Kate Bush to Rodrigo Y Gabriela to The Hellecasters to Dark Sanctury to Ben Harper to Karicus to Dream Theater to Zero Hour to Al DiMeola to Larry Carlton to Derek Trucks to Govt Mule to?

    Humour: One of the few things worth taking seriously

  2. #2
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: Bristol, UK

    Posts: 9,962
    I'm Nick.

    Default

    Excellent review John and thank you for taking the time to post it here. I'm sure people will find it a really useful read
    Nick
    My system...


    Follow AOS on Twitter: @AoS_Forum

  3. #3
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: Cricklewood

    Posts: 9,074
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    Hope so but think more people interested in Amercia then here
    Loves anything from Pain of Salvation to Jeff Buckley to Django to Sarasate to Surinder Sandhu to Shawn Lane to Nick Drake to Rush to Beth Hart to Kate Bush to Rodrigo Y Gabriela to The Hellecasters to Dark Sanctury to Ben Harper to Karicus to Dream Theater to Zero Hour to Al DiMeola to Larry Carlton to Derek Trucks to Govt Mule to?

    Humour: One of the few things worth taking seriously

  4. #4
    Join Date: Nov 2008

    Location: North Down /Northern Ireland/ UK

    Posts: 19,484
    I'm Neil.

    Default HI John

    How about putting some pictures in the review, if possible.

    Regards D S D L--- Neil
    Regards Neil

  5. #5
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: Cricklewood

    Posts: 9,074
    I'm ILOB.

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    The Rim Drive


    The Verus Drive on top of the book at angle in order to run platter
    Last edited by John; 15-01-2009 at 16:18.
    Loves anything from Pain of Salvation to Jeff Buckley to Django to Sarasate to Surinder Sandhu to Shawn Lane to Nick Drake to Rush to Beth Hart to Kate Bush to Rodrigo Y Gabriela to The Hellecasters to Dark Sanctury to Ben Harper to Karicus to Dream Theater to Zero Hour to Al DiMeola to Larry Carlton to Derek Trucks to Govt Mule to?

    Humour: One of the few things worth taking seriously

  6. #6
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: Down South

    Posts: 2,413
    I'm Neal.

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    I hope you don't mind me saying but it seems a rather 'sledge hammer to crack a nut' solution....clever, yes, but I can't help thinking you would get better results by going for a 301/401 in a suitable plinth form the outset....or a Lenco...

  7. #7
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: Cricklewood

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    I love Lenco and Garrard and Vic owns both. But if you have a good bearing platter and plinth then why not
    Vic sold his 401 after hearing what the Verus did to his modified Orbe and believe me Vic 401 was very special
    Both Garrards and Lenco will give you great results its just a different road which although more expensive will give you amazing results. The rim drive makes a lot of sense if you have a super scoutmaster and the verus drive if you have a turntable with less than 0.4 of a inch overhang between platter and plinth and in costs term no more expensive than building a 401 from scratch but a lot more expensive than building a Lenco
    Last edited by John; 16-01-2009 at 17:19.
    Loves anything from Pain of Salvation to Jeff Buckley to Django to Sarasate to Surinder Sandhu to Shawn Lane to Nick Drake to Rush to Beth Hart to Kate Bush to Rodrigo Y Gabriela to The Hellecasters to Dark Sanctury to Ben Harper to Karicus to Dream Theater to Zero Hour to Al DiMeola to Larry Carlton to Derek Trucks to Govt Mule to?

    Humour: One of the few things worth taking seriously

  8. #8
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: Cricklewood

    Posts: 9,074
    I'm ILOB.

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    Last week I heard Vic DC motor rim drive on his Salvation TT It seems where the VPI rim drive is falling down is by still using belts on the duel flywheel motor This is a very cost effective alternative compaired to the prices of the VPI rim drive or Verus motor
    Like the Verus drive the Dc Motor just produces dynamics without any sense of effort or overhang Listening to the Lost Ghoast by Gamalon on Aerial View I thought Vic rim drive sounded marignally better. At least I now know where to head with the new TT when i get round to it
    Last edited by John; 29-09-2009 at 07:16.
    Loves anything from Pain of Salvation to Jeff Buckley to Django to Sarasate to Surinder Sandhu to Shawn Lane to Nick Drake to Rush to Beth Hart to Kate Bush to Rodrigo Y Gabriela to The Hellecasters to Dark Sanctury to Ben Harper to Karicus to Dream Theater to Zero Hour to Al DiMeola to Larry Carlton to Derek Trucks to Govt Mule to?

    Humour: One of the few things worth taking seriously

  9. #9
    Join Date: Apr 2008

    Location: Cheshire, UK

    Posts: 2,829
    I'm Clive.

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    It's too early for me to say a lot about Salvation, there is still some time before Vic has it totally finalised. As you say John, it's incredibly dynamic. There is total silence between notes, clarity is eerie. What I've always thought of as vinyl roar is not that at all, it must be bearing roar as there is no roar with the Salvation deck. I've also had the Verus on the deck and there are a couple of areas where Salvation's motor and controller beat the Verus though the differences are small.

    How would I classify the sound? Something like rim drive meets direct drive.

  10. #10
    Join Date: Nov 2008

    Location: Dartmouth in beautiful Devon UK

    Posts: 1,243

    Question

    Does that "rim drive" use a "belt" ??

    Dave

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