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Thread: Any benefits in using Litz instead of bare Stranded wires?

  1. #1
    Join Date: Apr 2012

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    Default Any benefits in using Litz instead of bare Stranded wires?

    Hi, is there any benefit in using Litz wires in analogue cables - turntable to preamplifier? I know Cardas does it and probably many others.

  2. #2
    Join Date: Mar 2012

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    The claims about Litz are that it has lower self inductance than stranded wires and the configuration is said to introduce less phase shift. In reality, there's little audible difference between stranded wire and Litz and inductance is a non issue when connecting a low impedance source to a high impedance input in an amplifier stage, particularly when considering the tiny currents involved. litz is also more difficult to terminate due to the need to remove the coating around each wire before it can be soldered and more expensive to manufacture (hence buy).

    I have tried Litz in my set up and compared it to good quality OFC in a low loss dielectric. I found zero audible difference.

  3. #3
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    Thank you Reffc. So do you suggest that there is no audible effect occurring from the interaction of the bare strands in a stranded wire? I imagine that this does make a difference but I could not say if it is audible or not. The only Litz cable I have is Cardas and it does sound quite different from my other copper cables. Of course I cannot say if this is because of the Ltz conductors.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunbar View Post
    Thank you Reffc. So do you suggest that there is no audible effect occurring from the interaction of the bare strands in a stranded wire? I imagine that this does make a difference but I could not say if it is audible or not. The only Litz cable I have is Cardas and it does sound quite different from my other copper cables. Of course I cannot say if this is because of the Ltz conductors.
    There is no electrical reason at all why on a low level signal that multi-strand should "sound" any different to litz. If there is a difference in sound, its because one of the cables is creating more distortion than the other by virtue (and then only "perhaps) of (likely) increased capacitance, but this is usually not noticeable unless longer lengths than a few metres are considered and even then depends upon the output to input impedance of the kit being connected.

    Re-phrased, there is nothing wrong or electrically inferior about multistrand. This urban myth seems to have cropped up time and time again and much of the instigation lies in the hands of cable manufacturers themselves.

    I have been asked to re-wire tonearms many times and also complete systems. Almost every time, a quick clean of the connectors or a change for better quality connectors has completely solved the perceived problems much to the amazement of the owners (and gratitude for saving money!).

    When subjectively comparing different wires, it must be done using the same connections to have any credible meaning, something that is often forgotton.

    I currently have some cardas cable (shielded) with which I re-wired a tonearm, stripping the shielding back where it ran through the tonearm, and connecting that end of the shield to the tonearm earth. It did sound appreciably better than the multistrand it replaced, but that multi strand was over 30 years old, badly corroded with poor connections.

    I did another more modern arm (Tabriz) recently where there was absolutely no discernible difference in sound at all.

    Signals from cartridges to phono stages are exceptionally prone to interference from RFI/EMI and to capacitance. Using any well shielded cable of low capacitance should result (comparatively) in zero measurable difference at the receiving end. I know this because I have measured it, as well as heard the results.

    Nowt wrong with Litz at all, and George Cardas makes some very fine cables, just don't be fooled into thinking that litz tonearm wires are somehow superior electrically than multistrand and will result in appreciable sonic differences as there is little objective evidence to support that view.

  5. #5
    Join Date: Apr 2012

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    Using any well shielded cable of low capacitance should result (comparatively) in zero measurable difference at the receiving end. I know this because I have measured it, as well as heard the results.
    I am afraid that I cannot agree with you here. Reading what you said in the end I understand that two well shielded, low capacitance cables will give the same result. Which means that there is no reason to spend more than £5 on a phono cable (which may well be the case but not according to my experience). Also I don't see why would the connectors make a difference but not the cables. Do plugs have measurable differences (in result) but cables don't?
    Or maybe I entirely misunderstood what you said here... sorry if I did.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunbar View Post
    I am afraid that I cannot agree with you here. Reading what you said in the end I understand that two well shielded, low capacitance cables will give the same result. Which means that there is no reason to spend more than £5 on a phono cable (which may well be the case but not according to my experience). Also I don't see why would the connectors make a difference but not the cables. Do plugs have measurable differences (in result) but cables don't?
    Or maybe I entirely misunderstood what you said here... sorry if I did.

    Looking at all other things being equal (ie same shielding dielectrics, inner conductor spacing to the shield, impedance of the conductors) then there is no difference in the LCR parameters of the signal conductor and therefore the signal distortion should be about comparable (as ALL cables result in some losses), that being the case, there is no difference between them.

    What can make a difference is cable geometry that changes one or more of the LCR parameters, the impedance and coverage of the shield (as this alters S/N ratio) AND the connectors used.

    Yes, despite some arguments to the contrary, there can be differences between connectors which are not at all subtle. A screw lock Furutech CF102 RCA will result in lower distortion and losses than a budget plastic barrelled (unshielded) nickel plated RCA. This is measurable.

    Some connectors have poorer innsulation and and can have large capacitance plus may make comparatively poorer electrical connection than a better quality connector. The differences once again are measurable.

    Older connectors may be tarnished and have a very high impedance as a result, again this is measurable.

    All these things with connectors can and do affect sound quality. I have trialled dozens of different connectors, and about half of them used with the same cable result in subtle changes to sound. Nothing earth shattering until you get to something along the lines of the low impedance, low capacitance and well screened design of the CF102, then with some cables, the differences are FAR from subtle. This is all subjective of course being the results of my own trials and for that reason I'll add all IMHO. However, the LCR parameters of the cables is fact.

    When comparing a £5 phono lead with a quality lead (I won't use the term "expensive" because other than paying for good quality, the expense does not have to be huge), there is IMHO a large difference, but its obvious when comparing the cables, more often than not it IS a combinmation of LCR parameters, connector and joint quality that make up the differences.

    If you are not convinced then you are welcome to try my Fidelity Europa IC and compare it with my Reference Mercury IC. One is a £40 budget cable, the other is a modestly priced high quality cable. The differences in sound are ALL attributable to the LCR parameters and quality of components.

    When looking at digital leads, a major element in sound differences for two seemingly identical 75 Ohm cables come down to quality. I have come across Chinese sourced budget 75 Ohm digital cable that measured between 65 and 80Ohms across a 5m length...really. It takes just fractions of a millimetre in differences to tolerance between inner and outer cores to affect impedance, and one millimetre gives a huge difference. The quality 75 Ohm cables measure 75 Ohms. Thats the difference. Why does this matter with digital? because any deviation from 75 Ohms uses up redundancy in the data until the point is reached where missing data has to be interpolated and recreated by the DAC, the result being an imperfect sine wave reconstruction which affects how we perceive the sound.

    What has this got to do with your point? Its there to simply demopnstrate why quality is important and that LCR parameters are important. Its not the name on the cable that matters, its how well its constructed, and how the LCR parameters compare with a poorer cable that make any dufferences to sound.

    To summarise, a litz cable using the same CSA as a none litz cable, both having equal capacitance and impedance and both using the same terminations when used in a phono application will have the same electrical parameters which largely are the ones affecting signal integrity. The minutia of things like self inductance are a non-issue at these tiny currents, so just because one is litz and one isn't makes not one iota of difference to how that cable will sound. Over much much longer distances and with higher currents in play, then Litz configuratiion can have some transmission benefits but over less than 1m of phono cable dealing with minute currents at few millivolts, the "sonic" impacts are truly negligible.

    Hopefully that fills in the gaps, but there's no rocket science to it. People regularly compare cables, when in FACT they are not comparing cables which measure similarly and more to the point, the differences in distortion may be significant enough to reveal perceived changes in sonic characteristics.
    Last edited by Reffc; 18-05-2012 at 09:58.

  7. #7
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    Hi Reffc,

    This explanation seems just fine to me. It is much different from “all that matters is the capacitance and the plugs”. You have added in the equation a number of other factors that make cables different from each other (ie shielding dielectrics, inner conductor spacing to the shield, impedance of the conductors, cable geometry, quality of materials etc).

    I have no objection to the fact that capacitance and plugs matter, just to the argument that “this is all that matters”.

    I do not have a clear opinion about Litz wires so I am not arguing for or against them. Just wanted to get some views from those who have experience with them. Also I am not attracted by any specific brand names, nor willing to spend much money. Just trying to figure out if there are some benefits in Litz.

  8. #8
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