Perceived racism towards Indians

[Neil McCauley]

http://not-boring-honestly.blogspot....perceived.html

[The Grand Wazoo]

Howard posted the above yesterday in order to signpost his decision to no longer participate in the forum. Marco subsequently deleted it. It went into the Trade Impressions section but, since it is effectively a complaint about The Art of Sound, I’ve moved it here. You’ll see that, as has often been Howard’s way of late, all he’s done is to post a link to his own blog pages.

If you follow the link, you might think, like I do, that it’s a bit of a shame that Howard has misinterpreted Marco’s comment in the way he seems to have done – both in intent and in meaning.

I had to do a little reading to discover the meaning and origin of the phrase that Marco used which apparently so offended Howard. I’d never heard it before, but it’s not too hard to find out what ‘Indian Giver’ means. There are several definitions and entries to Wikki’s and the like which explain the phrase, and some of them state that it is considered by some to be an offensive term. However, I couldn’t find a single one that mentioned it could be considered offensive to people from Asia.

What I did find, though, was the website of an Australian fashion business, which is called Indian Giver. The description which is given in their ‘About’ page reflects exactly the sentiment which I feel Marco was trying to convey.

QUOTE: The name Indian Giver refers to the form of trading with the intention of returning.
Indian Giver deeply respects the native American culture and it’s traditions. No disrespect or harm is intended or inferred.

This seems a little at odds with the standpoint which Howard seems to be taking – that it is comparable with the term ‘Filthy Yid’.

Just like Howard, I don’t want to be associated with a forum that expresses racist views either, and on several occasions, both as a moderator and as a normal member, I have pointed out others behaviour when it has been truly offensive in this way. The difference in this case is that I don’t consider what was said to be racist. Now, Howard well may continue to think differently, but my view was that his privately published blog comments should not be the only place where this is documented, hence my decision to reinstate Howard’s post.

Maybe other people have an opinion on whether it is offensive? - whether they're Asian, from a First Nations tribe or otherwise.

[Darren]

I have always known since I was a child that the term Indian Giver refers to an aspect of Original American culture and does not refer to Asian people in any way.
Please Howard, put your Dummy back in.

[Darren]

Actually I've just read Howard's remarks on his blog. Bet Marco won't sleep at night now......

[webby]

Pathetic!

[Welder]

"You’ll see that, as has often been Howard’s way of late, all he’s done is to post a link to his own blog pages."

Did Howard ever do anything else?

As for the "Indian giver" bit, I've always understood this to be much as Marco's use of the expression.

[Marco]

Hi John,

As for the "Indian giver" bit, I've always understood this to be much as Marco's use of the expression.

Could you clarify that please, John?

Marco.

[Welder]

"a present for which an equivalent return is expected."

[The Grand Wazoo]

"You’ll see that, as has often been Howard’s way of late, all he’s done is to post a link to his own blog pages."

Did Howard ever do anything else?

Well, yes he did actually.
In the past, Howard has written many intelligent, thoughtful and thought provoking posts on AoS (& I have told him that I had admired him for doing so) but that all changed & for some reason his preferred method has been to direct things to his own blog or to other web pages.

[Welder]

I must have missed those

I don't want to just dig Howard out because he can't reply as i understand it.
But, this is obviously open to comment so here's mine.
I would say though that participation in discussion, no matter how knowledgeable or not, and no matter how contrary to the forums ethos, provided its carried out in a reasonable manner, is what helps to keep the forum alive.
Posting external links is okay i suppose, but then to not put forward a personal opinion leaves the link kind of hanging without much prospect of further dialogue.
So, writing a first post, no matter how well written and tossing it to the keyboard warriors to fight over is in my view a form of arrogance and voyeuristic.
However, its not my forum and what Marco is and isn't prepared to put up with is his business.
Overall though i find Marco pretty tolerant. I would have chucked Howard off the forums i moderate long a ago but I'm just horrid