Music as a spiritual experience

[John]

That political side is something I really admire in you Nick and really see how this is part of your connection to music
I also agree that music deepens are experience of empathy

[WOStantonCS100]

As John stated, so I shall... I would hope these comments don't offend.

At a very basic level, often during or after listening to a great piece of music (all the better if on very nice sounding gear), whether my own or someone else's, I'm often, if not speechless... grateful; literally, thanking God, that I have reasonably good hearing and the ability to deeply appreciate and enjoy what I am listening to. I know folks whose hearing is going. I also know folks who "just don't get it" when it comes to music. Anything beyond Lady Gaga or the latest corporate put together is lost on them. I can't and don't want to imagine what life would be like if I suddenly lost, what I certainly consider to be a gift. I'm only speaking for myself.

As I've gotten older and more aware of the ways of man: religion, politics, sex and society in general (not that I give a hoot about any of it, generally speaking), I am thankful that not even opposing viewpoints can stand between me and the enjoyment of the notes, melodies and harmonies, the timbre and the intangibles. This isn't to say I don't have my own viewpoints and my own "line in the sand". It just means that, most of the time, I can listen to music without prejudice; music that may be accompanied by lyrics that I don't necessarily agree with while still enjoying the music. I think that makes sense. Sometimes I do resonate with the message; but, thankfully, it's not necessary for me to do so, provided the music takes me to that higher level, that other place where words and meanings... don't mean anything and the only language there is... is the universal language, devoid of all animosity and contention. This is and has always been my great Earthly escape.

Now I will wait patiently for the white coats to arrive.

[John]

you and me both lol

[Macca]

, I can listen to music without prejudice; music that may be accompanied by lyrics that I don't necessarily agree with while still enjoying the music. I think that makes sense. Sometimes I do resonate with the message; but, thankfully, it's not necessary for me to do so, provided the music takes me to that higher level, that other place where words and meanings... don't mean anything and the only language there is... is the universal language, devoid of all animosity and contention. This is and has always been my great Earthly escape.

Now I will wait patiently for the white coats to arrive.

I'm not sure why anyone would be offended by these posts (and Werners post on the Stone' thread) which mirror my own experience and feelings pretty much exactly.

At forty-two I no longer, it seems, have the ability to completely shut down my mind and body so that there is just me and the music. Something I could do very easily twenty years ago, listening to taped albums on my budget set up. It had to be a tape as one side of record would not be long enough to 'dissolve' that divider between mind/body/music.

At the end of that 45 minutes I would suddenly 'awaken' again, feeling wonderful, fresh, like a newly cleaned window. I would then change the tape, lie down and relax and off I would go again.

Now I'm sorry to sound like an old hippy but my feeling was then,and still is now, that these experiences had a quite profound knock on effect with how I viewed myself and the world - many lessons were revealed to me at that time. It is difficult if not impossible to describe in words. The use of music and mind altering drugs and/or extreme physical behaviour that can be seen in the shamanistic rituals of so-called primitive cultures is, I think, a direct clue to what is occurring - the direct connection of man to a higher power or reality.

[Vinyleyes]

Music affects on many levels ... I once had to leave a performance by a great American Gospel singer of African descent at the Tonder Music festival in Denmark one Sunday morning ... her music and voice was so overpowering as to reduce me to a quivering wreck with tears streaming down my cheeks ... Sandy Denny can literally send me into shivers ... Celtic music can transport me into some timeless void ... give me a feeling that there is so much out there .. so much unknown ... and still to be explored ...
Some of the great guitar solos .. or a piece of gypsy violin .. or a snatch of melody from anywhere can literally explode shivers down my spine and eruptions of goosebumps .. .. making the hairs on back of neck stand up ...... . ... quite wonderful ...........

Music on a spiritual level .......... There are so many songs from all manner of artistes where the lyrics have a tremendous spiritual message ..

Take as an example ...... Ripple .. from the Grateful Dead ..

" Let it be known there is a fountain
That was not made by the hands of men"

Simply explained ... the words are saying that there is a fount of knowledge that is out there .. and it is knowledge from spirit .. not mankind.

"There is a road, no simple highway
Between the dawn and the dark of night
And if you go no one may follow
That path is for your steps alone."

Meaning .... there is a way of living between birth and death that can encompass a learning of this higher knowledge .. but it can be a lonely journey which you must make alone ..

Every line of this song can be broken down as to have a specific message . RIPPLE

That is just a tiny example ,,,,, so many of the songs we love have hidden spiritual message in the lyrics if we just take a time out to investigate a little ... try googling music and spirituality ...

Then there is actual spiritual music ............ a great and favourite performer of mine is Snatam Kaur ... You tubes here to give an idea ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1D3e...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nobyW...&feature=share

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbCBJ...eature=related



Then we have the fact that Rythmic music has been used for thousands of years for Shamans to cross over into an altered state .. basically crossing into a different vibrational level of exisitence .. All major theologies attest to the exisitence of 3 basic levels of existence .. In South American Shamanic terms these are simply the underwold ( The serpent) the middle world ( The jaguar ) The upper world ( The condor)

Vodou rituals, many African shamanic rituals also use this acompanied with frenzied dancing to facilitate the possession of their bodies by various spirits .. .. These are facts .. documented and tried by many many westerners ..

And as I am sure you know .. a type of music has passed into the more enlightened rave culture ( I am not talking Ibiza here .. ) .... many people attending raves with particularly inventive music will attest to encountering altered states of cconciousness .. and not always with the helping hand of pyschedelics ..

Finally .... a few quotes .. on what music has meant to some very enlightened people ..

And the night shall be filled with music,
And the cares that infest the day
Shall fold their tents like the Arabs
And as silently steal away.

Music was my refuge. I could crawl into the space between the notes and curl my back to loneliness.

My idea is that there is music in the air, music all around us; the world is full of it, and you simply take as much as you require. ~Edward Elgar

Music is the cup which holds the wine of silence. ~Robert Fripp ( for Werner )

[Vinyleyes]

For me music has been incredibly influential, but mainly upon my world view and political outlook - I have always been very politically interested, and that sprang directly from the kind of music I was listening to in my teens. My views have changed as I've got older, but I always find politically aware music deeply engaging; regardless of genre.

In a general sense, it's also something I find extremely moving on an emotional level. It's like a release valve, and sometimes it shocks me how something completely ephemeral can hit me in a really empathetic way.

To touch on the spiritual, I think Terence McKenna had it right when he talked about certain rhythms and musical structures having a direct influence upon someone's state of being. Music is an an intrinsic part of almost all spiritual cultures, and it's ability to change physiology is well documented. It's like a catalyst. If you have a spiritual side, music will affect it.

Terence McKenna was a true spiritual explorer .... he explored altered states produced by certain hallucinogens from a viewpoint of accepting them as being put there by spirit to act as teachers and guides on our individual pathway to higher learning ...

Here is a great quote of his ... sentiments echoed time and again in the lyrics of many of our favourite musicians ...

"We have to create culture, don't watch TV, don't read magazines, don't even listen to NPR. Create your own roadshow. The nexus of space and time where you are now is the most immediate sector of your universe, and if you're worrying about Michael Jackson or Bill Clinton or somebody else, then you are disempowered, you're giving it all away to icons, icons which are maintained by an electronic media so that you want to dress like X or have lips like Y. This is shit-brained, this kind of thinking. That is all cultural diversion, and what is real is you and your friends and your associations, your highs, your orgasms, your hopes, your plans, your fears. And we are told 'no', we're unimportant, we're peripheral. 'Get a degree, get a job, get a this, get a that.' And then you're a player, you don't want to even play in that game. You want to reclaim your mind and get it out of the hands of the cultural engineers who want to turn you into a half-baked moron consuming all this trash that's being manufactured out of the bones of a dying world."
— Terence McKenna

[Barry]

Vodou rituals, many African shamanic rituals also use this acompanied with frenzied dancing to facilitate the possession of their bodies by various spirits .. .. These are facts .. documented and tried by many many westerners ..

No, not true: as I mentioned in my post, I have witnessed voodoo rituals in West Africa (which are different to those of Haiti and Cuba) and the dancing is not frenzied at all.

In fact those participants who went into a trance were not dancing at all; they were sitting still, listening to the music and drumming (which, it has to be said, did not have a mesmeric beat), when suddenly one would get up shaking with convulsions, their eyes rolled back and their limbs flaying wildly. They would immediately be physically carried by two or more helpers into a hut (forbidden to outsiders), where they would be calmed down and cooled down with water.

Having been calmed down, yet still in a trance, they would come out of the hut and dance with the others. Their dancing was 'jerky' but not frenzied. However they would not bump into other dancers or into permanent structures, despite sometimes having their eyes still rolled back. In this state they are able to directly communicate with their own personal protective spirit that may have entered their bodies. It is not clear if this happens, but whilst in the trance state they would enter the hut that housed the shrine/alter dedicated to the respective spirit (usually closed to outsiders).

During this state they are able to perform feats or suffer effects, which they would not be able to do when out of trance. For example, one woman whose personal spirit was also the fire spirit had gun powder or flashpowder poured into her hands and ignited - she seemed not to feel any pain, or suffer any burns.

Whatever is the trigger that cause these tribes people to go into a trance it is not loud, or mesmeric sounding music with a pounding beat.

Regards

[Vinyleyes]

No, not true: as I mentioned in my post, I have witnessed voodoo rituals in West Africa (which are different to those of Haiti and Cuba) and the dancing is not frenzied at all.

In fact those participants who went into a trance were not dancing at all; they were sitting still, listening to the music and drumming (which, it has to be said, did not have a mesmeric beat), when suddenly one would get up shaking with convulsions, their eyes rolled back and their limbs flaying wildly. They would immediately be physically carried by two or more helpers into a hut (forbidden to outsiders), where they would be calmed down and cooled down with water.

Having been calmed down, yet still in a trance, they would come out of the hut and dance with the others. Their dancing was 'jerky' but not frenzied. However they would not bump into other dancers or into permanent structures, despite sometimes having their eyes still rolled back. In this state they are able to directly communicate with their own personal protective spirit that may have entered their bodies. It is not clear if this happens, but whilst in the trance state they would enter the hut that housed the shrine/alter dedicated to the respective spirit (usually closed to outsiders).

During this state they are able to perform feats or suffer effects, which they would not be able to do when out of trance. For example, one woman whose personal spirit was also the fire spirit had gun powder or flashpowder poured into her hands and ignited - she seemed not to feel any pain, or suffer any burns.

Whatever is the trigger that cause these tribes people to go into a trance it is not loud, or mesmeric sounding music with a pounding beat.

Regards

Well I think the main dicussion here is that the music is used to facilitate an altered state experience ... The various shamanic practices around the world differ widely in the exact manner that they achieve their aim and I am happy that you witnessed such a ritual and found it an extraordinary experience. That is exactly what we are talking about here ,,

But just for the record .. I don't believe I ever mentioned loud, or mesmeric sounding music with a pounding beat .. In fact I used the sentence below ,,
"Then we have the fact that Rythmic music has been used for thousands of years for Shamans to cross over into an altered state .. "

Regarding fenzied dancing ........ well I'm not going to bother determinining between frenzied, or jerky .. splitting hairs methinks .. the fact is that possession occurred .. and that is our subject of discussion here ...

Let us keep our eyes on the moon .. and not the different fingers pointing at it ... that is how a lot of interesting discussions get sidetracked and lose their direction. ....

[John]

I done a few rituals including a few sweat lodges which have been increadable experiences and even a form of trance dancing based on West Africian traditions in my more hippy days.
The trouble about the journey was you never was really sure where it would take you

[Rare Bird]

Prog is a lifestyle what else could i say.