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Thread: Best cart for SME 3009 arm

  1. #11
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: A Strangely Isolated Place in Suffolk with Far Away Trains Passing By...

    Posts: 14,535
    I'm David.

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    Dom will need to come in as well, as he's working intimately with styli now...

    Elliptical is one of the better profiles IF it's done right. Shure's Hyper Elliptical (HE) styli were from memory "proper" elliptical profiles less compromised than their earlier types, which were rather variable I remember and not always well aligned (the M75-ED could be awful here, with mis-aligned cantilevers and all sorts..)

    A "naked diamond" means a tiny diamond chip inserted into or brazed onto the cantilever, giving lower mass than a diamond chip brazed onto a piece of metal or other stone, this then mounted on the cantilever. This was the main difference between the ADC VLM and XLM for example, or the Shure M75E and M75-ED, this latter seemingly based on the V15 II once the Mk III had come out.

    Many attempts have come and gone to improve the profile of the stylus tip. Shibata were one of the first, and they had several variants over the decades, as some played the groove bottom too much (unbearable on worn or noisy records). Loads of other types have come along since and I suspect that many of them share some characteristics (HELP PLEASE DOM ). Giger, Stereohedron, VDH, "Microscanner," AT's ML type and SAS all try to improve end-of-side tracing and tracking, improving the treble performance especially, the downside being critical setup and possible problems with dirty discs. One good thing about these is that records played on groove-grinders of the 50's and 60's can SOMETIMES be given a new lease of life, as these special tip profiles trace different and less worn parts of the groove.

    Getting the profile right is vital, even with conical tips and a decent standard of grind and polish pays dividends with this type too, witness the much loved Denon 103 on the one hand and Stanton's 500V3 on the other, this latter promoted with extra careful polishing (mine's not bad at all).

    Hope I'm not a jumbled mess with the above.....

    Re the SME headshell. If you investigate the SAS Shure approach (I don't know how much Dom or EsCo would charge to fit a new decent diamond on an existing Shure assembly (their suspensions seem to last well), some of SME's headshell gunge (blac-tac I believe) will damp the shell and ensure greater contact. Not such an issue with later Shures (era IV onwards) as the contact area is tiny in the first place. I've said this many times, but the difference in placing a small square of card-table green baize betwixt V15 III and SME shell was quite marked and preferable sonically as well, so should make for a very cheap and easily reversible option.

    Regarding cartridge screws. From habit, if at all possible, I use 2.5mm hex-head Allen screws and nuts. For a high compliance cartridge with a usually soft plastic body, these can be lethal if over-tightened, but I must admit to liking an SME shell with bolt-head on top and nuts underneath nipped up gently to hold the cartridge firmly but without crushing the mounting lugs on the cartridge. Common sense prevails here of course - and a sensitive touch, which I for one lacked in my Linn days - cough - .......
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  2. #12
    Join Date: May 2011

    Location: Preston, UK

    Posts: 851
    I'm Dominic.

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    Right, I'm here Dave. To be honest you have explained he fundamentals pretty well.
    Non nude tips rely on a non diamond mount for the diamond tip. This is then attached to the cantilever by means of adhesive.
    Nude tips are mounted directly to the cantilever, no intermediate mount involved thus lowering tip mass and more robust. Non nude tips have a tendancy to fall off!
    Stylus profile is important for detail retreival and also depends on cartridge compliance.
    I would not use a conical tip on a high compliance cartridge. Conical tips favour high tracking force.
    Not all tips are made equal. The finish on a tip is all important. I have seen some very crude looking styli.
    Gem stone quality are best, having a highly polished finish.

    Conicals are at the bottom of the stylus tree, followed by various elliptical profiles. These vary greatly. Hyper ellipticals follow next. These include Shibata types.
    Next we have complex line contact styli. These include Van Den Hul, Paratrace, Jico SAS and Fritz Gyger.

    Now, don't get too hung up over profiles. For your needs with the SME arm a good elliptical on a nude mount will be wonderfull. If you really want to push the boat out, get a Jico SAS and consider it job done!

    Advanced profiles ( ellipticals and line contacts) are not really designed for end of side distortion. This tends to be a result of poor setup.
    They were designed to extract more information from micro grooves ( stereo records).

    I have heard great results from even conical tips. They have to be correctly mounted to the cantilever and tracking pretty high, compared to modern carts that is. Trouble is, conical tips get a bad press because they are cheap to produce and consequently get used on poor quality cartridges.

    I'm babbling on here and hope some of this helps.
    Dave is pretty spot on with his advice of obtaining a Shure/ Jico sas tip and using that in the original SME headshell.
    But as I said before, get the arm re-wired as well and you will be more than happy with the results.

  3. #13
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: A Strangely Isolated Place in Suffolk with Far Away Trains Passing By...

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    I'm David.

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    Many thanks Dom. One day, I'll have a go at re-wiring. The techie arms can be got at fairly easily I think and I have a kenwood 750 arm to experiment on as well
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  4. #14
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: Southern England

    Posts: 2,990
    I'm Howard.

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    I achieved excellent results with:

    Shure V15 - natural synergy
    Pickering
    Stanton
    Grado
    Grace F9E (very good indeed)
    Nearly any Goldring, especially the green one, the model number escapes me
    Sonus.

    Hope this helps. Regards. Howard.

    ********************
    Well, hello.

  5. #15
    Join Date: Dec 2010

    Location: Northampton

    Posts: 1,373
    I'm Mark.

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    If you fancied a new Shure I'm sure the M97xe would do very well with a 3009.

  6. #16
    Join Date: May 2011

    Location: Preston, UK

    Posts: 851
    I'm Dominic.

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    97xe's have production problems and cannot be recommended in my experience.

  7. #17
    Join Date: Dec 2010

    Location: Northampton

    Posts: 1,373
    I'm Mark.

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    Ok, scratch that idea then.

  8. #18
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: A Strangely Isolated Place in Suffolk with Far Away Trains Passing By...

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    I'm David.

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    The 97XE, if bought cheaply enough, can be re-tipped or re-styli'd. At one point recently, they could be bought for under £50..

    The ever-popular Pickering XV15/625 is a safe-as-houses cartridge which should be quite at home in an S2 SME I think. best to use the plastic inserts on the fixings to prevent hum-loops.
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  9. #19
    Join Date: Sep 2009

    Location: Derbyshire

    Posts: 9,250
    I'm Josie.

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    guys that is most helpful. many thanks for the explanation.

    I've often wondered about the tips as there are quite a few. Generally, I want good bass, nothing too bright in the highs, a nice midrange and a solid/3d image.

    I guess this may be the grail but if I can get as near to this I'll be very happy. Got my Ortofon up for grabs now too.

    I think I'll go down the shure cart with a Jico sas stylus. Do you know if these are available in the Uk or are they Japan only?
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  10. #20
    Join Date: Dec 2010

    Location: Northampton

    Posts: 1,373
    I'm Mark.

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    As far as I know it's just Japan. Which Shure are you planning to go for?

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