F.A.O Rob Holt - Techincs comments on PFM

[Marco]

Hi Rob,

I hope you don't mind me quoting you from PFM but your comments below are so far removed from reality that I had to comment in the interests of accuracy. I normally agree with much of what you have to say about hi-fi but I'm afraid this beggars belief!

You wrote on PFM:

Never heard a 1210 but I have heard the sister models (inc the 1700) back in the day and the idea that these things could be considered alongside a decent LP12 is quite funny.
The best (read very expensive) DDs are great but these middling units were no match for a Planar 3 let alone an LP12.
I can't see that the passing of 20 years would change that.

This 'lets all buy a Technics' thing is a phase (just like the current fad for cheap valve amps) and I predict a short lived one. Folk will hopefully come to their senses in a few years and the Regas, NAs, LP12s will be back on the racks.

I'm sorry but this is complete and utter nonsense. First of all, in stock form an SL-1210 murders a P3 in any sonic parameter you care to mention. The Rega is a toy in comparison - I know because I've owned and used both, including many other Regas.

The Regas are good decks for the money (the budget ones) but quite frankly there is no comparison between any Rega deck and an SL-1210, certainly in terms of engineering quality, and ultimately this impacts on performance. The only thing that holds back a stock 1210 is the quality of ancillaries used such as the tonearm wiring, but to compare the superbly accurate direct-drive motor unit in the 1210 with the flimsy 'rubber band' driven plastic motor unit on a P3 is quite ridiculous.

Low-mass belt drives are ok up to a point but their speed stability issues are showcased in all their 'glory' by something like a 1210, and once, say, fully KAB modified as my deck is, the difference between the performance it offers and even an LP12 or a Spacedeck is pretty huge. I can go into detail about this if you wish as I've owned and used many LP12s through the years and I am obviously very familiar with the 1210.

But what takes the biscuit, Rob, and I've very surprised at you, is you state that you haven't even heard a 1210, so how on earth can you compare it to the decks you mention?

Furthermore I can assure you that my purchase of a KAB-modified 1210 has absolutely nothing to do with "emperors new clothes" (I'm sure other 1210 owners would agree) - it was quite simply because the deck thus modified is fundamentally superior to *any* other T/T I've heard apart from a well mounted SP10, and even then, based on my experience at the Chesterfest at the weekend with Nick (Lurcher's) SP10 in a Slatedeck plinth, the differences are minimal and probably down to personal preference more than any inherent superiority of either deck...

This was the consensus of opinion of the people present in the room at the time, including Nick. The KAB 1210 certainly raised quite a few eyebrows!

Yep, that's how good it is. But you wouldn't know that because you haven't heard one of those either

I think your comments above are written through 'Rega green' coloured spectacles and are a disservice to the otherwise normally accurate information which one reads from you on PFM. As such I would ask you to link to this discussion on PFM to provide some balance for the membership reading and the OP who is seeking experienced and unbiased advice which I'm sorry I don't think your comments above represent.

For those interested the thread can be read in its entirety here:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/s...ad.php?t=52109

I look forward to reading your reply in due course.

Regards,
Marco.

[leo]

My TT knowledge is extremely limited as I've never really owned one although I have heard a wide variety

Anyway I have heard a Rega P3 which had various mods directly against a modded SL-1210
I've no idea of the cartridges used but the phono stage was a GSP Revelation

To my ears the SL-1210 slaughtered the P3! funny thing is I found the P3 to sound more like a CDP, it was brighter than the SL-1210 , the P3 just didn't sound real to my ears, disdn't give me that impression of being there

Its very rare for me to get into TT debates because as mentioned above I don't know enough about them but just thought I'd stick a quick reply as I have heard both of these TT's in the same system

I've heard plenty of LP12's, not my cup of tea TBH

[Peter Stockwell]

Marco,

Aren't you in contradiction to your own rules here ?

I fully understand your ire, tho!

cheers

[Ian Walker]

F.A.O Rob Holt - Techincs comments on PFM

Get back to skoool lad.

[StanleyB]

P3?.

[lurcher]

I might be missing something, but why does it matter what folk say in other places?

[StanleyB]

I might be missing something, but why does it matter what folk say in other places?

Aren't we hear to correct and educate our fellow audiophiles in the 'art of sound'?

[lurcher]

Aren't we hear to correct and educate our fellow audiophiles in the 'art of sound'?

Why?

I can see the point if you are trying to make a profit (and nothing wrong with that), but it just ends in a flame war, nobody changes their opinions until they actually listen to stuff, and often never then.

Though having said that, it does seem that many have views on stuff they have never heard, but what can you do, folk like to be right, and it never helps telling them they are wrong (IME).

[Marco]

Nick,

Rob's a member here so he has the chance to reply. I'm not a member of PFM, so it was my only way of addressing the issue. Normally I don't bother what people write on other forums but occasionally something is written which I feel strongly about that is completely incorrect - this is one such occasion.

Hey, maybe he was just having a laugh so we should give him the benefit of the doubt. It's not April the 1st, is it?

Peter,

There is no "ire". I was quite simply shocked and stunned when I read what Rob had written about the 1210 (and his comments about the P3 in particular). He's normally a sensible and knowledgeable chap so hence why I was so surprised, particularly when he stated that he's never even heard a 1210.

The rule on AOS is that no disputes from other forums are to be brought here. Me quoting Rob regarding the 1210 doesn't come under that category because it isn't a dispute - it's simply me challenging something he's written about hi-fi which I know to be wrong. It's not just a difference of opinion - it's just plain wrong.

I think it's very important that people asking for information on forums aren't given advice which is one-sided and biased, and indeed incorrect. It's something we put much work into on AOS. This myth that Regas, Linns, etc, are somehow 'better hi-fi decks' than the 1210 is something I thought had been debunked and shown for the nonsense that it is - I want people to continue to wake up and smell the coffee and not be brainwashed or influenced by agendas. This is why for example Ashley and JC of 'AVI fame' were banned.

The *only* reason why people are 'jumping on the 1210 bandwagon' is because when they hear what it does compared to their 'highly regarded' Brit belt-drives they want one!

Marco.

[StanleyB]

Why?

I can see the point if you are trying to make a profit (and nothing wrong with that), .

I am confused. I don't sell any turntables, and that includes the 1210, so where does the profit part of your reply comes into it?

I have however listened to the Technics and Rega, and find it hard to believe that any sensible music lover with turntable ears could possibly come to the conclusion that the P3 outshines the 1210. My first course of action if that had been the case on my TT, would be to inspect the cartridge and arm for damage and alignment. Then I would look at the surface upon which the decks have been placed. Next, I would wonder if it is the synergy between my TT and the rest of my equipment downstream. And as an ultimate test, I would swap over arm and cartridge between the two turntables and do the testing again.

Just the mention of the word 'flame' on your part brings into question the negative perception behind your reply. The world is full of happy 1210 and P3 owners, and so is eBay and Craigs List.