Computer based audio discussion

[Lowrider]

Removing the hub caps...

Because you will have less moving mass and better wheel balance...

[Ashley James]

I have to say of Audiophiles that there is a tendency to snobbishness that is depriving them of improved sound quality.

On Pink Fish a Newbie with a complete Naim system was asking what he could do to it to improve the sound so that it compared with his iPod. Most of the suggestions put forward revolved around spending more money "upgrading" and changing cables, but ignored the fact plenty of others are posting the same sort of thing on other message boards. Digital sound has progressed to the point where the DACs in a iPod Shuffle may well be as good as the ones in a certain £15K CD player, they certainly will be in this M-Audio device http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product~...lo~ID~3772.asp The plain (and disturbing) fact is that iPods and other better MP3 players compare favourably with the best CD players and sound better than many hi fi systems if used with high quality headphones.

Because the Pro Audio business is so much larger than the "Audiophile Market" customers have a wider choice for a fraction of the cost and usually of equipment with a better performance. Something similar has happened to Hi Fi with products like Cambridge Audio easily outperforming many Specialist favourites. The fight around ADM9s is simply because something very much cheaper is better and that the technology we've pioneered will soon replaces "separates" in the real world.

The worst of this snobbishness is over MP3's. I admit that I loathe and always have loathed turntables, they were good enough for Pop and rock but misery with Classical Music. I remember endless mistracking on Tenors and Sopranos, increasing congestion on complex passages and struggling to hear the quiet passages over the surface noise. I was absolutely delighted to throw my turntable away nearly twenty years ago, but not Audiophiles, they are still playing with them, some even arguing that they are better than CD!

They are not, they have 100 times as much distortion!

And now we have 128K MP3's either as Internet radio or downloads from P2P File sharing sites like Limewire, rocketmp3 and Ares, the record companies are paranoid about the them but seem unable to prevent them, so presumably they are legal. Purchased MP3's are 256K and difficult if not impossible to distinguish from a full size file on a good modern system, but not on certain hi fi companies systems.

My argument is not that everyone to switch to MP3 but use them, via the Internet, to discover new and different types of Music, material that you'd never have known about otherwise. If you like it enough, you can always buy a CD. This suggestion has turned a Cyberspace Lynch Mob on me, some so angry that they may end up with blood pressure problems! Is it me are are these people potty? Because I much prefer the sound of an MP3 to an LP, I find them, in the words of an Audiophile "more musically involving". It's a bloody stupid term that's been used to excuse inferior kit for years, but disallowed where MP3's are concerned.

[Lowrider]

This suggestion has turned a Cyberspace Lynch Mob on me, some so angry that they may end up with blood pressure problems! Is it me are are these people potty? Because I much prefer the sound of an MP3 to an LP, I find them, in the words of an Audiophile "more musically involving". It's a bloody stupid term that's been used to excuse inferior kit for years, but disallowed where MP3's are concerned.

It is definitely you, coming to an audiophile forum, and calling stupid to audiophiles...

[Steve Toy]

Controversy is a good thing as it encourages the sharing of knowledge and provides balance as the basis for analysis both to those contributing and those just reading.

Unfortunately when the red mist does drop, intelligent discussion goes west...

Lets keep it intelligent.

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My wife has an iPod Nano that I bought her for Christmas. A friend also brought one of the original iPods round a couple of years ago and I hooked it up to my system. I then did a direct comparison between it and the Naim CDX I had at the time.

The CDX blew it away in terms of midband coherence, timing and dynamics in particular. The Krell iPod docking station I heard at the show last weekend was also pretty unconvincing.

Lets not even begin to pretend that compressed, lossy formats can possibly compete with CD. Lossless FLAC files implemented properly probably will see off most CD players but compressed formats designed for convenience first and foremost never will.

As for turntables, it's a case of some are better than others.

[Vinyl Grinder]

Agree ashley that a hell of a lot of high end gear does sound appauling & yes there is a lot of snobbery (The turntable comment tho is cobblers) but to claim MP-3 are something to takes serious compared is utter rubbish.It a lossy format that destroys the original recording from off set, there's no getting away from that...MP-3 also has connection problems.

ie: take a live recording on CD for example, it's a continuing performance with no break's, as the CD moves to track two (on the CDP display) there is no pause in the performance (continues flawlessly into the next song), if you were to transfer this CD to MP-3 you will encounter a small pause between the tracks that the CD is telling you there is (But isn't).You can buy software to try illiminate the 2 second gap MP-3 has created but to exceptional ears you can still detect it unless you've already damaged your hearing in the first place with MP-3 listerning.Seve is encountering dynamics & soundstaging problems mainly due to the lossy compression.If the same were FLAC lossless it would most probably beat the Naim 'CDX' providing it's been properly implimented..

[WikiBoy]

I have to say of Audiophiles that there is a tendency to snobbishness that is depriving them of improved sound quality.

On Pink Fish a Newbie with a complete Naim system was asking what he could do to it to improve the sound so that it compared with his iPod. Most of the suggestions put forward revolved around spending more money "upgrading" and changing cables, but ignored the fact plenty of others are posting the same sort of thing on other message boards. Digital sound has progressed to the point where the DACs in a iPod Shuffle may well be as good as the ones in a certain £15K CD player, they certainly will be in this M-Audio device http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product~...lo~ID~3772.asp The plain (and disturbing) fact is that iPods and other better MP3 players compare favourably with the best CD players and sound better than many hi fi systems if used with high quality headphones.

Because the Pro Audio business is so much larger than the "Audiophile Market" customers have a wider choice for a fraction of the cost and usually of equipment with a better performance. Something similar has happened to Hi Fi with products like Cambridge Audio easily outperforming many Specialist favourites. The fight around ADM9s is simply because something very much cheaper is better and that the technology we've pioneered will soon replaces "separates" in the real world.

The worst of this snobbishness is over MP3's. I admit that I loathe and always have loathed turntables, they were good enough for Pop and rock but misery with Classical Music. I remember endless mistracking on Tenors and Sopranos, increasing congestion on complex passages and struggling to hear the quiet passages over the surface noise. I was absolutely delighted to throw my turntable away nearly twenty years ago, but not Audiophiles, they are still playing with them, some even arguing that they are better than CD!

They are not, they have 100 times as much distortion!

And now we have 128K MP3's either as Internet radio or downloads from P2P File sharing sites like Limewire, rocketmp3 and Ares, the record companies are paranoid about the them but seem unable to prevent them, so presumably they are legal. Purchased MP3's are 256K and difficult if not impossible to distinguish from a full size file on a good modern system, but not on certain hi fi companies systems.

My argument is not that everyone to switch to MP3 but use them, via the Internet, to discover new and different types of Music, material that you'd never have known about otherwise. If you like it enough, you can always buy a CD. This suggestion has turned a Cyberspace Lynch Mob on me, some so angry that they may end up with blood pressure problems! Is it me are are these people potty? Because I much prefer the sound of an MP3 to an LP, I find them, in the words of an Audiophile "more musically involving". It's a bloody stupid term that's been used to excuse inferior kit for years, but disallowed where MP3's are concerned.

This is far too simplistic. Just the process of digitising and undigitising a signal has a sonic impact even if while in the digital realm nothing changes (which I am far from convinced of). The digital world is no panacea, apart from for manufacturers in making the production process more consistent and predictable. Analogue is a highly unpredictable medium which is why subjective assessment in design is so essential. If you want to get back to real basics then go back to the 1920s and mains powered magnets, voice coils wound to the output voltage of single ended tubes, extreme horn loading, all pretty dangerous with the voltages flying around and would not be allowed now. BUT in some ways nothing today could compete in musical terms to what this would reproduce, it wasn't very good at the time due to the quality of source, but now!!! Even more basic as I talked about before go for extremes in speaker efficiency and then you can just use a pair of transformers for voltage gain as long as the source has a modicum of current capability. Simplicity in design will always be sonic king.

In musical terms the modern age seem to have less and less to offer.

[sastusbulbas]

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[sastusbulbas]

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[Vinyl Grinder]

Take Gong, Flying Teapot.

I have the original LP, the Audiophile Re-issue LP and a Japanese Mini LP CD, the Original pressing still sounds better and more musical than the other two, and my Record player is nowhere near as expensive as my CD replay.

.................................................. .......

I still dont have a decent CD of Dark Side of The Moon, apparently the CD side of the SACD is the one to have. Any opinion?

I have the 1st issue's of the Gong Trilogy of LP's..You mention Audiophile pressing! Do you meant the Italian issues on Get Back records?

I have the SACD 'Dark Side Of The Moon' CD.Doesn't sound as good as the 30th anniversary Vinyl issue to me.

[snapper]

Damn, I still dont have a decent CD of Dark Side of The Moon, apparently the CD side of the SACD is the one to have. Any opinion?

Hi Steve

I have a few different copies of DSOTM on seedee.

My personal favourite is the Toshiba black triangle release.

The SACD layer and the CD layer of the most recent release,is,IMHO not very good compared to the Toshiba release.

YMMV.