Your most loved three vinyl grinders owned throughout the years!

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Originally Posted by Marco

Indeed, Barry, but it has much greater rigidity, and is probably less resonant too...

Guy,

I'm sure I remember stories of the chap who made them (his name escpaes me now) demonstrating his tonearms at shows, and handing out a sample for people to see if they could bend - the idea being that if they could do it, they could then keep it! As far as I know, no-one managed it though...

Do you remember that? :)

Marco.

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I remember that story and was actually handed an arm tube to bend once, but it wasn't Mike Knowles of Alphason. It was someone from SME with a very early Series V tube, and no, you couldn't make it flex, not even a tiny bit. Must have been about 1987? the tube was a blue colour, not painted.

My SMEV was bought direct from the factory (as a trade purchase) and I supplied the wire (Audio Note silver) for it. The standard internal wire, headshell leads and external lead are very poor in my view. The V with decent wiring fitted is a different sounding arm altogether, not dark or grainy sounding at all. I've had it 21 years now. It has been on and off several decks, been subjected to multiple cartridge changes and yet has never missed a beat always giving very high quality sound. I can't think of many high end arms which would have lasted so long, still work perfectly and have maintained their value so well.

The Alphason was acquired as a bag of bits. Spot the difference!

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Originally Posted by Marco

I'm sure I remember stories of the chap who made them (his name escpaes me now) demonstrating his tonearms at shows, and handing out a sample for people to see if they could bend - the idea being that if they could do it, they could then keep it! As far as I know, no-one managed it though...

Do you remember that?

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That was an SME stunt with the armtube of the V, Marco.


EDIT: OK so I should've read Guy's post above.

Yup, but I'm quite sure that Mike Knowles did it at shows too with the titanium armtube of the HR-100S :)

Wish I'd been around when the arm-bending contest was taking place ;)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

I do like your taste in T/Ts, Adam -nice one :)

As far as your 301 is concerned though, I'm not sure I would (in fact I wouldn't) swap your HR-100S for an SME V, as depending on what cartridge was being used, I think it would be more of a 'side-grade' than an upgrade...

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I have actually done the comparison on my Garrard 301 as David foolishly left his own SME V in the HFW office just before the Christmas holidays a few years back - he was off East for the duration so I ...er....'borrowed' it for the festive season!

Running an ATOC9-MLII I still found it to be an improvement over the HR-100S but I was surprised that it was a quite subtle improvement, rather than the huge leap forward I was expecting. This was also before I sent the HR-100S off to Johnnie at Audio Origami for a bearing service, whereupon it came back sounding even better, although not necessarily in the areas where I felt the V excelled.

Consequently, I shall still have a V some day but the Alphason is also in the category of items that I will never get rid of - I'm sure I can find another deck to put it on when the day comes!

Hi Adam,

I think you're doing the right thing not getting rid of the Alphason. If I had one, I'd treasure it for life! For me, the key to what you describe with the SME V lies here:

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Running an ATOC9-MLII I still found it to be an improvement over the HR-100S but I was surprised that it was a quite subtle improvement, rather than the huge leap forward I was expecting.

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Two things:

1) What you discovered was just how little the best modern tonearms have advanced in terms of performance compared to the best of the vintage varieties, which vindicates what I bang on about here all the time! ;)

2) The main reason the SME V 'worked' with the OC-9 is because it would've added weight and extension to the lower frequencies of the rather anaemic sounding OC-9 (in comparison in that area with other similarly-priced MC carts on the market), and injected a little warmth and richness to its rather 'insistent' and brightly lit top-end. In other words, the synergy was better with the SME V, rather than the design of the arm being intrinsically any superior to that of the Alphason.

Like Guy says, it's all about different 'flavours' and finding the right recipe for a given situation. In that respect, new is not necessarily better, and nor do 'respected badges' in hi-fi guarantee a better product :cool:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

The main reason the SME V 'worked' with the OC-9 is because it would've added weight and extension to the lower frequencies of the rather anaemic sounding OC-9 (in comparison in that area with other similarly-priced MC carts on the market), and injected a little warmth and richness to its rather 'insistent' and brightly lit top-end

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Spot-on, Marco, when I was running an SME IV with OC9 the SME's weighty bottom end worked very well with the AT and produced a synergistic coupling. Combined with an EAR 834P (which has transformers in the MC position) it had some needed added warmth.

However, on an absolute level the AT33PTG has a better balance with a more natural and extended bass and this works very well with the Jelco SA-250ST arm. This cart in an SME may prove to be too much of a good thing.

I'm glad you agree, Martin, and of course have the relevant experience to confirm your view :)

You may also wish to point out to Adam that the Jelco SA-250 is not 'budget' in terms of performance compared with an SME 309 (which he asserted earlier) - in fact, according to you, your SA-250 is as good as your SME IV was! ;)

With regard to cartridges, the AT33PTG is quite simply a better all-rounder than the OC-9, and it's cheaper, and so offers rather more in the way of SPPV.

Why the UK gets foisted with the OC-9, decent though it is, and Japan (and elsewhere) get the superior and less expensive AT33PTG, God only knows.... :rolleyes:

Marco.

Having used an EMT 929 recently on the 938 I borrowed, I'm not sure I'd put it in the same class as either the Alphason or an SME. It struck me as a rather clunky, agricultural device somewhat crudely executed and lacking the potential for easy fine adjustment. Perhaps any advantage it has comes from it being slightly longer than a 9" arm, but the headshell arrangement, provision for bias & vtf adjustment and the sound of the combination with 938 was some way short of what I'd be looking for. Ok perhaps for a radio studio where everything had to track securely, sound safe and withstand the daily rigours of clumsy use. Less suited for the home. I certainly wouldn't take the trouble to buy a loose one & fit it to a technics or any other deck for that matter. I suspect there are better, more versatile arms out there for similar money or less.


In anwer to the OP. Decks I've owned, Garrard 301, SP10 Mk2, Voyd. Arms, Helius Orion, Alphason Xenon, SMEV. Honourable mention for the original Eminent Technology LT arm which was great fun on the Garrard. Cartridges, Audio Note Io, Soara and Ortofon SPU.

Hi Neil,

Thanks for your thoughts :)

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I can't say a lot about magnesium as a material in audio, but what you write sounds as good a reason for the *colourless sound*as any other I have read...except that I feel its a combination of that aspect + the awful darkness of the VDH arm cable used (wire an SME with any other internal cable and that would open things up.

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I do think what I've written is a fairly plausible explanation of the reason for the negative sonic effect you can hear with an SME V, when used on one of SME's own turntables. However, you're right about the VDH arm cable. The best thing anyone can do with it is rip it out and fit something more sonically neutral.

I've had a love/hate relationship with VDH cables throughout the years, and unfortunately it's mostly been hate, as at their worst, they sound rather opaque and dynamically constrained. However, now and then, they come up with a few gems, and the speaker cable ('The Wind'), which I use, is a case in point, and arguably one of the best speaker cables I've heard at any sort of an affordable price - ditto the CS-14 Hybrid internal cable used in the Lockwoods.

It's so frustrating that their product range isn't more consistent in terms of sonic performance! :rolleyes: It's almost as if AJ has a brainwave now and then with his products which results in something that *really* works, but otherwise mostly spends his time flattering to deceive...

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...also the SME turntable is in itself highly damped. It use damping sheets under the metal work, rubber O rings between motor and plinth, silicon damping in the adjusting towers, and the whole plinth hangs on heavy stiff rubber O rings. All in all its very damped.

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Indeed. It suffers from the effects of over-engineering! It might not make sense, but sometimes you can go over the top in that way and 'kill' the music in the process.

What you describe undoubtedly also has a major effect on the overly controlled sound of SME T/Ts when used with SME (magnesium-constructed) arms.

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The Graham B44 arm was developed by Bob Graham on/for a SME Model 30 motor unit, so logically it would, I thought sound very good on a Model 20, which it does. However clearance between the plinths on a Model 30 is greater than on a Model 20...so the output cable has to be rotated to a right angle. Unless you buy a right angled connector you need to modify it yourself, which I was able to do.

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That is why it pays to think outside of the box, as most 'audiophiles' would simply contend that SME know best, and thus their tonearms are bound to sound best with their turntables, which on the surface seems logical, until some lateral thinking is applied by those with the ability to look beyond the end of their nose ;)

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Many love the sound of the Model20A (including 5 arm)and unlike you I don't think its badge snobbery (might be in a few cases ;), but not all), they just like that sound. I don't like the digital sounding Avid TTs but many do. Like all things audio its a case of system synergy and taste.

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I completely agree, although SME (given the company's provenance) attracts its fair share of badge snobs, so as good as their arms and T/Ts are, on AOS I prefer to encourage the following of other less obvious avenues, ultimately leading to the achievement of much higher SPPV....

Marco.

Hi Guy,

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Having used an EMT 929 recently on the 938 I borrowed, I'm not sure I'd put it in the same class as either the Alphason or an SME. It struck me as a rather clunky, agricultural device somewhat crudely executed and lacking the potential for easy fine adjustment. Perhaps any advantage it has comes from it being slightly longer than a 9" arm, but the headshell arrangement, provision for bias & vtf adjustment and the sound of the combination with 938 was some way short of what I'd be looking for. Ok perhaps for a radio studio where everything had to track securely, sound safe and withstand the daily rigours of clumsy use. Less suited for the home. I certainly wouldn't take the trouble to buy a loose one & fit it to a technics or any other deck for that matter. I suspect there are better, more versatile arms out there for similar money or less.

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I know of the experience you refer to above, as you told me about it at the time, so I don't for one second doubt your experiences. However, quite simply, that's not what I heard with Barry's EMT XSD-15 when it was installed in the Jelco, running through the A23 and into the Croft phono stage!

Perhaps I got the synergy right better than you did, who knows? :)

What I heard (effects of misalignment and incorrect VTA aside) was that similar 'magic' and tonal richness in presentation, with bass to die for, I get with the DL-103SA - the effect of which I love, (does the EMT also use Alnicos?), but with a much wider repertoire throughout the frequency range in terms of its musical abilities. It also acted as a wider open window onto recordings, due to its superior detail retrieval, and it possessed a filigree of silkiness in the upper frequencies that evades the (already talented in this area through the A23) 103SA.

You might be right about the EMT tonearm, in comparison to the Jelco SA-750, but I'm afraid I may have no other option of fitting the EMT if I wish to use the cartridge I described above, which would be the TSD-15 if I were to fit an EMT arm onto the 1210.

The reason for this is that the XSD-15, which has an SME-type bayonet fitting, comes with an especially long shaft, which makes it protrude much further from the end of the Jelco than a normal detachable headshell, thus I suspect skewing correct alignment by quite a significant margin. Therefore, as there is no alignment adjustment possible on the headshell, and as the Jelco arm itself cannot be moved in any way, I'm forced to look at other options...

What I thought could solve the issue is to go for an EMT arm, that would thus allow me to use the matching TSD-15 cartridge, which crucially has a very short and stubby shaft, shorter in fact than even that on a normal detachable headshell (in fact, it almost mates directly with the arm), so I suspect that this would likely allow for correct alignment, but of course it is by no means guaranteed - the only way I'll know for sure is to try it and see!

Based on what I heard though with Barry's XSD-15, if I get it right, the sonic rewards could be quite considerable, unless the EMT arm is a real dog compared to the Jelco, which I doubt. So unless you've got any better suggestions for using this combination with my existing T/T, then I'm willing to give it a go, not right now but perhaps later this year, as I have other priorities at the moment :cool:

Marco.